wheres the fat basslines gone

[dirty_bass]

and as soon as you stop putting parameters on something it stops being what it was and starts becoming something else, as much as that might upset your ideas about what techno should/shouldnt be, its the truth... if i make techno that has an electro arrangement, uses electro sounds and gets electro fans excited then surely i've just made electro?

if this isnt true then y did you publicly state something about you not making "techno" (cant remember the exact description you used for it)? surely then you can make what you want and its still techno?

But tht`s the whole point. all definitions of techno are different to all people.
To the uninitiated, techno is any electronic music.
Then things get split and split and split.
If we go back to the pure sense, then only detroit is techno.
The point is, the fluidity.
I believe the intention of the originators was to make music that didn`t sound like anything else.

Now you have producers who commit to a sound.
They are trying to sound like techno, like chris liberator, like adam beyer, like glen wilson, like regis, like whoever.
That`s so totally NOT techno it`s unreal.
It`s the death of techno.
It`s when techno stops going anywhere, and stops being anything other than pop music.

So no, not putting parameters on it, keeps it what is was, and helps it to evolve and become something else.

Otherwise it stays the same.

Unfortunately, people are reluctant to accept change.
They will find a something they like, and then do it again and again and again.
As william Burroughs said
Human activity is drearily predictable.

I think the statement you were referring to, was me saying that making other types of music, allows you to learn other modes, and other techniques, which you can then re apply in an abstract/techno context/concept.

If you only make techno, listening to techno, thinking about techno, then what is your reference?

You become a washing machine, cleaning old dirty sheets, screwing yourself, and giving birth to cloned washing machine babies.

To absorb and reinterpret all forms of music and then twist this aqquired knowledge into a new, futuristic form, is techno.

Or you can just knock out another banger that entertains for 5 minutes, disapears into anonymity, and then just repeat the process. But don`t call it techno, because that is exactly the same model that drives the pop industry.

It`s called pop for a reason.
It appears, it floats around briefly, and then POP
it`s gone.

[rhythmtech]

so what do you suggest? that every track ever written should be completely alien to the last.. that the genre re-invent itself with every new release? cause if thats the case then techno will die ten times quicker then people claim it is doing right now..

like you said people are predictable, they like something to clutch to. listening to techno they are already on the edge of the "socially acceptable" music scene..

thing is db.. what if people actually like techno? what if the fans of techno listen and dance to it for a reason? are we really to be that arrogant to try and change their taste? to "educate"? i for one dont need educating when it comes to my musical tastes.. i prefer to discover for myself.. and there's plenty of differant styles of techno out there to discover..

to be honest you're sounding like someone who is bored with what techno is at the moment.. thats grand, maybe the current climate isnt for you.. but remember that theres millions more that love every minute of it.. and a lot of us have been loving it for years and years on end..

i've been a huge fan of the cure since i can remember.. also the banshees, sisters, nephilim... all placed in a similiar category.. all doing their perticular thing for years without much serious deviation.. yet each new album is something new.. the same but new... if i want something differant theres a million bands out there to provide it.

same as techno.. if a producer is good at one perticular style, and builds his sound around it without too much deviation, then so what.. theres endless amounts of producers out there who have a differant sound and tomorrow another million will pick up reason and start down the road...

techno isnt dying because of stagnation.. its dying because people are more interested in saying its dying than actually going out and enjoying the music.

[The Overfiend]

same as techno.. if a producer is good at one perticular style, and builds his sound around it without too much deviation, then so what.. theres endless amounts of producers out there who have a differant sound and tomorrow another million will pick up reason and start down the road...

techno isnt dying because of stagnation.. its dying because people are more interested in saying its dying than actually going out and enjoying the music.

MOTHERF*CKING ZZZZZING!
Thank you sir.
Could not have worded it any better myself.

[dirty_bass]

I think your making excuses for a lack of imagination by justifying someone who makes the same thing all the time.
Sure it`s fine, people will do so, but when things move on, THEY will be the people moaning about things aren`t like they used to be, or that things aren`t true to the origins or whatever.

Techno isn`t dying as such, it`s just that people are moving on, at the moment, people have moved on to the minimal/glitch sound. And already the moaners are there "oh minimal isn`t techno, blah blah"

It will move on again.

I`m not bored with techno as it is at all.
The new stuff is great.
I`m bored of the stuff that sounds like all the other records I have in my collection from 1999.
Why buy them again?

And to react in extremes by saying "that every track ever written should be completely alien to the last.. that the genre re-invent itself with every new release?"
C`mon man, your more intelligent than to make a reversal argument like that.

What I`m talking about is regurgitation, and you know exactly what I mean.

It`s not about massive extreme experimentation and change.
But it should at least be about going forwards at least a little bit.
Isn`t that what any decent musician wants to do?

It`s not even about "educating people" or forcing them to change.
I think it`s more about personal artistic development.

there`s just something inherently sad about artists churning out the same thing again and again.
The cure being a good example.

Of course, people will always like what they like. It`s a fair justification for anything you do (I mean the generic you, not YOU)

But then you have no right to slag off pop music, or any other.
Nor can you say that techno is "on the edge of the "socially acceptable" music scene".
If you place it in the same boat as all other music, then it is simply less popular, or less interesting, or less successful, than other music.


"techno isnt dying because of stagnation.. its dying because people are more interested in saying its dying than actually going out and enjoying the music."

If you truly believe this statement. You are mad.
I`m fairly sure this isn`t the reason it`s not as popular as it was in it`s heyday.
People make their own decision, and it seems a large percentage of fans moved on somewhere else.


Aaaaaanyway.

This has all gone into more of an artistic discussion.
Which comes back to musicianship.
Oh yeah
Fat Basslines?

Where are they?

Doing fine in the house and minimal scene.
But I think mainly they ran off and hid themselves on the dubstep scene.

Someone go and get them.

[loopdon]

MOTHERF*CKING ZZZZZING!
Thank you sir.
Could not have worded it any better myself.

Neither could i.

[DannyBlack]

my ma always said, "if you dont like the way something is, then quit your bitching and change it."

wise words.

[dirty_bass]

my ma always said, "if you dont like the way something is, then quit your bitching and change it."

wise words.

Exactly.

I`m not trying to be aggressive, the point I¬m trying to make, is that all the music we love and enjoy would never have come about without musical progression and experimentation.

Look back at acid techno for example.

Secret Hero : Control. Seminal acid london techno.

Now look at the latest Hydraulix.

Completely different, Henry is not making the same music he was in the early acid techno era.
He didn`t stand still, he progressed, found new sounds, new techniques, and put them to use to develop artistically.

And he is influential enough that many many people are trying to copy his sound.
But it is his sound, and I expect it will continue to change, and then people will imitate that sound.

So I think it`s about aspirations. Do you want to create something new, or just photocopy someone else plan?

I think musical progression is a necessity for any serious musician. Otherwise why make anything new at all?



I find it hard to believe I`m even having to argue the point FOR musical progression, in a techno forum.

this is a sad day.

[rhythmtech]

i think your trying to over argue the point.. nobody is saying we shouldnt musically progress..

henry may have his own sound but then so do a lot of producers in the same genre.. doesnt mean that they're drastically differant from henry..

i personally dont think theres a glut of people trying to copy his sound at all.. i think theres a lot of people tryin to make techno that they know and a lot of people know his sound.. doesnt mean they're trying to imitate it, does it?

and to be honest control was hardly the firt acidtechno record to sound like it did.. and theres been labels b4 hydraulix that sound like hydraulix.. same as theres been labels that sound like dirty bass b4 dirtybass was around..

you seem to be forgetting that techno is reletivly young... it DOESNT need to change on such a fast scale.. i feel the opposite to you.. the music industry is too fickle.. always looking for something new.. so y not dig our heels in and keep making whatever we make instead of feeling the neccesity to change.. people will change when they progress.. but if you like something y change it just for the sake of progression? y not progress at your own rate? rock has been around 60-70 years now in some form or another... it hasnt drastically changed - can techno not be its own style without having to always be something else?

[dirty_bass]

But rock has changed.

Look at bands like Sigur Ross
Or Tool.

Sure there`s the crap that hasn`t changed.

But I`m sure you understand the point.

I thought techno was about the future?

Guess I was wrong huh?

[dirty_bass]

Your point about DB records is probably valid. There probably were other labels that sounded the same, but I was trying, at the very least, to mix commercial stuff, with harder stuff, to expose the commercial heads to the other stuff, on one label. I think as a whole the record label remained reasonably diverse though.
And now I`m moving on.
Dirty Bass is dead. I`m never releasing or recording a Dirty Bass track again. The record label will only continue with new artists I think who need a shot at a release. People who do something new.

[SlavikSvensk]

But rock has changed.

Look at bands like Sigur Ross
Or Tool.

Sure there`s the crap that hasn`t changed.

But I`m sure you understand the point.

I thought techno was about the future?

Guess I was wrong huh?

dude, i gotta back you up here.

techno is stale because of its inherent conservatism. YES there are people doing interesting stuff, but the audience of people who care keeps shrinking. many people out there only buy what they expect. that is, they only buy london acid techno or swedish hard techno or detroit techno or mnml or whatever. that's also the same as rock.

but rock is so much BIGGER than techno that it can deal with this situation much better. something that only attracts 1% of rock listeners still attracts a lot of people. something that attracts 1% of techno listeners...well...not so much.

people who listen to techno need to be more adventurous, i think. people who make techno should be more adventurous.

[rhythmtech]

but that whole idea smacks of elitism.

if somebody makes something and it sells and people enjoy it then who are we to put it down?

if i make a tune with one note and one sample and people buy it then nobody really has any right to criticise.. who are you dirtybass to say whats "good".. same as who am i tto say whats good? we're just insignificant dots on the techno map in reality... let people make what they make and woory bout you're own stuff rather than saying techno has to change.. what has to change are the people that are more concerned with change!!!

[loopdon]

Rhythmtech; I really don't want to get into any arguments that may or may not be going on in this thread.

Just one question: What do you mean by ''insignificant dots'' ? How is significance measured ? Significant in marketing terms/number of followers ?

Or more like: We're all part of something bigger?

[eyeswithoutaface]

talk about going round in circles.

The sooner alot of people detach their own personal outlook on the scene and what they want out of the scene from whats ACTUALLY happening in the scene, the better. This is essential, in my opinion of course, in order to gain the full wider picture.

I see and accept both arguements here, i agree that techno drastically needs to move on in alot of areas, but i also do agree that a person has the right to make whatever they like, of course, that's a basic human right, but when there are so many people evidently doing this, then that's where the problem arises. It happened with the big Primate inspired loop thing off the late 90's, schranz, minimal etc etc and eventually it does back to bite people on the ass, and after a while, at some point, you wake up and it's like an epiphany, a frigging realisation that infact, alot of the music that i do love and have spent the past ten years of my life dedicated to, does in fact sound very similiar!

This is usually a turning point, it certainly was for me. It was the day i realised the word techno is probably the most overused, most misunderstood and most widely unappreciated feeling, yes that's right feeling, that i have felt. That's when i started to appreciate the actual ethos of techno and not the practical meaning associated with it i.e just because its on Primate or bangs like a shit house door doesnt make it techno. Just because a record is shelved under the techno section of a record store doesnt make it techno.

I went off alot of artists when i started thinking like this, and in turn discovered a ton of new, interesting, fresh, to me, artists that the term techno was, again to me, practically invented for. Music that can be appreciated at the front of Voodoo at 3am or infront of my tv set at 5pm.

Techno is to each person whatever they want it to be, thats something no one can deny or say is wrong to say basically. But with elements such as sales, promotion, running labels etc getting harder and tighter with everyday, i personally believe everyone has to raise the bar that little higher if they want out of the scene what they expect. If you just keep rolling the same record out month after month, with the same sounds, the same structure, the same patterns etc etc then you will eventually end up in a bigger loop than the records one is putting out

[SlavikSvensk]

but that whole idea smacks of elitism.

if somebody makes something and it sells and people enjoy it then who are we to put it down?

if i make a tune with one note and one sample and people buy it then nobody really has any right to criticise.. who are you dirtybass to say whats "good".. same as who am i tto say whats good? we're just insignificant dots on the techno map in reality... let people make what they make and woory bout you're own stuff rather than saying techno has to change.. what has to change are the people that are more concerned with change!!!

yes it is elitist, but i'm totally shameless about being a techno elitist. dirtybass even more so :)

seriously, though...the problem is, in part, that very little sells well. and what does isn't long-term sustainable. that is, it doesn't keep the style healthy and innovative.

don't you think the innovation is what propels the genre forward? as db said, this is future music. not all of it needs to be 14/9 dubsteb (hehe divide), but good innovation a) trickles down to everyone else and b) gets new people involved. even if the percentage of innovative and adventurous techno increased from 1% to 20%, that would be a huge step.

if all records today sound like all records 3 years ago, why should people buy today's records if they already have 3 years ago's records?

[dirty_bass]

Phuck it, lets just make pop
Somebody get me a half starved chick who can mime.

[audioinjection]

geez, reading all this complaining about techno is really depressing.....of course there's gonna be people complaining but why not just love (or leave) techno the way it is........think about when there wasn't forums to talk about this stuff, techno changed and we accepted it (or left it)

im all for discussion, but i feel the love for techno is lost because of internet drama IMO

[Little_Fella!]

Yowzer...!

What a great thread...

Been away from it 4a bit so I'm glad i caught this one...:)

I reckon this thread should be saved some where & then re-post the whole lot in a couple years time - so we can reflect...

Marvelous...

[rhythmtech]

Rhythmtech; I really don't want to get into any arguments that may or may not be going on in this thread.

Just one question: What do you mean by ''insignificant dots'' ? How is significance measured ? Significant in marketing terms/number of followers ?

Or more like: We're all part of something bigger?

hahaha

i meant we're all just dots that make the scene.. we'll come and go but the music will (hopefully) still be here

[rhythmtech]

and loopdon.. i dont think there is any arguements going on here..

just that i know im right and everyone else is wrong... obviously :briggin: