RA: Month to Month - Analysis of Vinyl and Techno...hmmmm

[RDR]

Vinyl sales are up so I don't think that statement stands and it's not me who's saying people don't deserve to hear the music, that's a really odd statement, I don't have duty to do anything other than what I wish. Music has never been a democracy by its very nature and on some projects I do the end product is final, like a painting. You may think it's odd but that's the way we work.

Thats as maybe, but i think techmouse was saying that although vinyl sales are up it really is a drop in the ocean in terms of how many people in the world ACTUALLY can play vinyl.

IMO no-one deserves anything unless they work to get it, unless your talking healthcare we already paid for (but thats another story of course)

[Martin Dust]

Thats as maybe, but i think techmouse was saying that although vinyl sales are up it really is a drop in the ocean in terms of how many people in the world ACTUALLY can play vinyl.

Are you sure about that tho? Are you just guessing?

[RDR]

Are you sure about that tho? Are you just guessing?

consumer sound systems dont include vinyl players any more martin. And thats no guess.

Vinyl sales are up... from WHERE exactly? You'll have to forgive me as i dont have access to that annoyingly expensive book the industry produces each year with all the figures in. And more to the point what FORMAT vinyl are we discussing here? 12" dance tpye vinyl or 7" Promotional vinyl?

I occasionally go and see a music retailler/distro in york and see what goes out of the door.. the majority of the vinyl is 7" rock/pop records. So it is possible that vinyl sales are up, and again i dont know about your experience with your label and sales - i hope its good of course :)

[Martin Dust]

consumer sound systems dont include vinyl players any more martin. And thats no guess.:)

Don't see that matters to be honest, as I mentioned vinyl sales as a whole are up, so it doesn't seem it matter that they no longer included.

Vinyl sales are up... from WHERE exactly? You'll have to forgive me as i dont have access to that annoyingly expensive book the industry produces each year with all the figures in. And more to the point what FORMAT vinyl are we discussing here? 12" dance tpye vinyl or 7" Promotional vinyl?:)

Vinyl sales as a whole are up. I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.

I occasionally go and see a music retailler/distro in york and see what goes out of the door.. the majority of the vinyl is 7" rock/pop records. So it is possible that vinyl sales are up, and again i dont know about your experience with your label and sales - i hope its good of course :)

It's more than possible, it's a fact. Does something have to be wrong to make it right? I don't see why this fact is so hard to accept.

[RDR]

Don't see that matters to be honest, as I mentioned vinyl sales as a whole are up, so it doesn't seem it matter that they no longer included.

It most certainly does, in the light of what we've been discussin here. We're discussing music content delivery to people who want to listen to it.

Vinyl sales as a whole are up.

Thats avoiding my point there bud, as far as im aware with the research ive done that in the round figure includes those 7" i just mentioned.

I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.

Glad to hear it man! That shows all the hard work you put in. :)

It's more than possible, it's a fact. Does something have to be wrong to make it right? I don't see why this fact is so hard to accept.

What do you mean? Sorry i dont understand the context here..

[djshiva]

Shiva is the crux of what you're saying is that you believe you have a "right" to access "good" music regardless of what the label/artist decides?

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking.

kinda begs the question: if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

is music an exchange of ideas, a meeting somewhere in the middle between the inspiration to create and the joy of experiencing it? is it a sharing of beauty? a communication? or is it a one-sided endeavor, made only for those at its source? is art/music made in a vacuum? should it be?

again, these are all just random questions that popped into my head over the course of this discussion. perhaps i am over-philosophizing, but i personally find them to be very important questions about the nature of art and creation.

[Martin Dust]

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking..

For me, I love it when something is final, I guess some people will never understand or accept that. It's really nothing to do with rights, would you ask Mr. Hirst to do a picture on A0 cream paper because that's what you prefer? What do you think he'd say :)

[Martin Dust]

It most certainly does, in the light of what we've been discussin here. We're discussing music content delivery to people who want to listen to it...

It not relevant at all, like I said vinyl sales are up so more people are listening to more vinyl, fact. I can't tell you if dance/techno is up or down, I'm just stating a fact that proves the above to be not a factor - I mean, how much proof do you need? It hasn't and doesn't make a difference.

The last point was a generalisation that people on BOA seem to focus on the wrong thing and seem to have a desire for something to be wrong so they can moan/justify/fight some cause over and over again on endless threads.

My whole point is that Ro's article is a crock of shit, written to cause a fuss, as RA did last year and the year before, meanwhile our sales our up, we've started doing limited vinyl only and we, as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

[RDR]

It not relevant at all, like I said vinyl sales are up so more people are listening to more vinyl, fact. I can't tell you if dance/techno is up or down, I'm just stating a fact that proves the above to be not a factor - I mean, how much proof do you need? It hasn't and doesn't make a difference.

The last point was a generalisation that people on BOA seem to focus on the wrong thing and seem to have a desire for something to be wrong so they can moan/justify/fight some cause over and over again on endless threads.

My whole point is that Ro's article is a crock of shit, written to cause a fuss, as RA did last year and the year before, meanwhile our sales our up, we've started doing limited vinyl only and we, as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

Welll.. on the RA front I completely agree with you, thats the nature of journalism these days it seems. Shock and awe...

or bore.

[djshiva]

For me, I love it when something is final, I guess some people will never understand or accept that. It's really nothing to do with rights, would you ask Mr. Hirst to do a picture on A0 cream paper because that's what you prefer? What do you think he'd say :)

no offense, but i think you are interpreting my questions/comments in a much more contentious way than they are meant. i just told you that i don't think it's about rights, and yet you still responded from that interpretation.

i am not attacking your viewpoints, nor do i think you are wrong to want to do things the way you want to do them. i was actually attempting to address things from a little different standpoint and possibly have an interesting discussion about the nature of creating music and the nature of listening to it as well. please go back and reread my last post without thinking that i am attacking you or claiming any inherent rights over your musical output, k ? :)

everyone has made some interesting points, and it just got me thinking along some slightly different lines, and i wanted to throw some points out for discussion. you are obviously very passionate about what you do, and i appreciate that, because i am too. but sometimes our passion keeps us locked into a line of thinking that comes from a defensive standpoint, instead of looking at things objectively and just discussing for the sake of wanting to expand our thinking. that is all i was trying to accomplish with my last post.

to add to your post, i was once told by someone that, even though i have begun to use ableton live to dj and interpret the mixes as i saw fit, if he booked me he wanted me to play vinyl, which is exactly the same point you are making about Mr Hirst and cream paper. I was entirely offended that he would ask me to express my creativity in a way that HE wanted and not how I wanted, so I do get your point.

[Sunil]

as artist are happy with what we are doing and are not concerned with mass consumerism or converting anyone to some great cause, it's all about the music and good music all-ways wins out.

Take the mass consumerism part out for a minute though, that's irrelevant here and we all know it. Of course you set out to convert people in the scene to the 'cause' when you started the label, but that's a few years ago now.. you've overcome that hurdle, so it's not an issue for you anymore. It is for other newer labels though.

I'm with you on most things you've said, but I think you should weigh up your situation against other people's before laying in too much with the fighting spirit ;)

Anyway, I've just started a label myself.. and like some of the people mentioned in the RA article, digital has not been any type of priority for me. This said, a lot of people have asked me and shown a desire to buy releases digitally - so once I fill all those stupid forms out and get IRSC codes etc. I'm going to do it digitally too. The reason is because people have asked, and because I think it's more fair for the artists involved too, to make their music more available. Maybe it won't bring in much money but for this particular project I don't feel I should be too precious about not doing it.

I'm not sure what I think of the RA article; it does pose one or two relevant questions, but y'know, so what? People start record labels because they love vinyl and want to go the whole way - why vinyl lovers and real record labels are being made out to be kind of odd for not having an interest in digital is a bit much sometimes. A record label is a record label, there is only one type really. If that's your dream, then the other options don't really figure. This said, I do understand producers' need to want to have their music heard one way or the other; but I still think the number one aim of most labels or producers, should be to get a record out - it still counts for an awful lot more.

[Martin Dust]

Take the mass consumerism part out for a minute though, that's irrelevant here and we all know it. Of course you set out to convert people in the scene to the 'cause' when you started the label, but that's a few years ago now.. you've overcome that hurdle, so it's not an issue for you anymore. It is for other newer labels though.

I'm with you on most things you've said, but I think you should weigh up your situation against other people's before laying in too much with the fighting spirit ;)

I'm not really attacking anyone, just speaking my mind. I didn't set out to convert anyone to anything or any cause whatsoever - you're either into it or not and I have no influence over what other people decide, project all you want but you'll still be wrong ;)

Consumerism is a state of mind so you can't just say it's not relevant not when people on the threads have been stating clearly they think it's wrong to not do digital and music has a right etc, that's consumerist thinking.

[Martin Dust]

no offense, but i think you are interpreting my questions/comments in a much more contentious way than they are meant. i just told you that i don't think it's about rights, and yet you still responded from that interpretation.

i am not attacking your viewpoints, nor do i think you are wrong to want to do things the way you want to do them. i was actually attempting to address things from a little different standpoint and possibly have an interesting discussion about the nature of creating music and the nature of listening to it as well. please go back and reread my last post without thinking that i am attacking you or claiming any inherent rights over your musical output, k ? :)

everyone has made some interesting points, and it just got me thinking along some slightly different lines, and i wanted to throw some points out for discussion. you are obviously very passionate about what you do, and i appreciate that, because i am too. but sometimes our passion keeps us locked into a line of thinking that comes from a defensive standpoint, instead of looking at things objectively and just discussing for the sake of wanting to expand our thinking. that is all i was trying to accomplish with my last post.

to add to your post, i was once told by someone that, even though i have begun to use ableton live to dj and interpret the mixes as i saw fit, if he booked me he wanted me to play vinyl, which is exactly the same point you are making about Mr Hirst and cream paper. I was entirely offended that he would ask me to express my creativity in a way that HE wanted and not how I wanted, so I do get your point.

Shiva, I just try to write 5 words instead of 23, so it may seem harsh but I'm totally chilled and cool about things, I know you're not attacking me.

I'm happy with what I'm doing and my viewpoint - it wouldn't matter to me if no-one agreed :)

[Sunil]

I'm not really attacking anyone, just speaking my mind. I didn't set out to convert anyone to anything or any cause whatsoever - you're either into it or not and I have no influence over what other people decide, project all you want but you'll still be wrong ;)

Consumerism is a state of mind so you can't just say it's not relevant not when people on the threads have been stating clearly they think it's wrong to not do digital and music has a right etc, that's consumerist thinking.

I didn't say you were attacking anyone; but your situation with your label is entirely different to others. For a start, it would seem that you had a greater investment of money to put into it, and also you have used a lot of already established artists. Don't get me wrong, I think the way Dust Science have approached things has been a fine example of how to run a label right; but to say that you're not interested in converting people over to the vibe of the label is a bit strange for anyone to say. You might not have actively promoted it that way or hassled people about it, but I'm sure you would be happy to think that new people got into this sort of music via your label, or that people in general took an interest in your label full stop, no?

[Martin Dust]

but to say that you're not interested in converting people over to the vibe of the label is a bit strange for anyone to say. You might not have actively promoted it that way or hassled people about it, but I'm sure you would be happy to think that new people got into this sort of music via your label, or that people in general took an interest in your label full stop, no?

I can't be worrying if people get "it" or not Sunil, I go with heart and do what I do, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but either way I know I did it for the right reasons (for me) - it may not make any sense to everyone else but hey...

[TechMouse]

Vinyl sales are up so I don't think that statement stands

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.

Music has never been a democracy by its very nature and on some projects I do the end product is final, like a painting. You may think it's odd but that's the way we work.

Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

[RDR]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.


Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

Consider it bought!

[TechMouse]

I can't speak for other labels or genre but we are doing just as well as we did 3 years ago.

In fairness, Martin, I think that's more a reflection of the variety and quality of the stuff you put out than the health of the industry in general.

[Martin Dust]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.

Non-DJs who buy vinyl purely for home listening is the most minuscule of minorities within a scene populated by minorities.

Disagree with facts all you want :) Plus we have loads of people on our list who aren't DJ's that buy vinyl, do we have to go around and around?

Perhaps I'm missing something then, because it looks like most of the Dust Science catalogue is available on Juno Download.

DS93 isn't, Dustdubz isn't - like I said, whatever we feel is right for the project.

[Martin Dust]

In fairness, Martin, I think that's more a reflection of the variety and quality of the stuff you put out than the health of the industry in general.

Maybe but "variety' is a lot harder as some people expect a label to be "just" on thing or sound. I've never really stopped to think about it.