Should music be given away free?

[MARK ANXIOUS]

i'm gonna say my thoughts on this without reading anybody else's post cause sometimes what other people say can influence you may/may have not said.

should music be given away free? imho NO, NO and NO again.

and the main reason why i say this is primarily because of the artists. i have seen SOOOOOO many talented older people who are just artists (not dj's) leave this game recently because of the fact that they finally come to realise that you do, actually need money to have a decent standard of living. perhaps they have a kid, or get married or whatever. and whether young people like it or not, when you get older, you tend to need more security, and you are forced to become a part of the machine that is human nature - those carefree days of living in squats/student accomadation smoking weed really do become a thing of the past.

the problem has been with techno or electronic music, as opposed to other forms of classic music that came many years ago, is you could actually become involved with it, without the need to perform. until now, you could spend ten/fifteen years or so in a studio without the need to perform and at least make a living when you had to. right now, these guys are having to either perform, or leave the music. this is such a travesty for the music and it will mean that all that knowledge, talent, years of manual reading, purely dedicated studio expertese will be lost forever. it means the main ideas and thoughts going into this music we call techno are now from passionate ppl between the ages of 16-25, or older producers who go out on the road 3 days a week and only have 4 days to work on music.

this deeply saddens me and worries me at the same time. the longest lasting music genres are those that appeal to and are made by all ages, all types of people/colour/creed/culture. techno has been one of those genre's for a long, long time (20 years now). this change is not a good thing imho.

anyway, that's my main reason.

the other reason is that i've come to realise i actually don't like this throw away culture that's evolved out of the internet. i really do love having a product to hold that i paid for, i feel like i've contributed to the guy/gal who made it. that is a very great feeling, knowing that you've contributed or will contribute indirectly to that artist's advancement. bah call me old fashion but this 'fresh air' music is ok to an extent but it's not interactive. if someone was playing an instrument in front of you, you could give them a round of applause. seems like the internet has made a load of unappreciative, sellfish people who only care about who they can block or accept on msn, or what music they can download for free..

jesus i sound like an old man now :lol:

here we go, generation change. i think that's what this is all down to but there's some deep concerns here, that everyone needs to consider. underground music will become a niche market for much younger people than it used to be. and seeing as though i'm getting on a bit these days (hehe), that really isnt a good thing for me. and i thiink if you guy really think about it, it isnt for the music either.

ok rant over, i'm off to make some moooooooooosic!!! (and i thank god that my dj enables me to do this!)

[tocsin]

Ok, Mark. Fair enough. Though, I will respond with your words in mind so you can get a better idea from where I come from.

For one, I never EVER expected to have a release. The only releases I have on a known label is purely accidental. I did not send them a demo. Rather, a CD I had done was passed on to the label by a friend and they got in contact with me. Before that, and largely after, every label I've ever had something come out on were completely DIY with no hope of ever turning a profit. So, I got paid with merchandise. It was a lot of fun, but not something that I ever really cared about. And for where I did care, I had a number of people come in to **** me over in so many ways that just never happened when I just did this for fun without money involved. I'm not talking about the labels either. In my opinion, every label that I've had something come out on has more than honestly lived up to their end of the bargain. However, I am more at home in cyberspace.

I can say that because I do not view computer culture as throw away. Yes, there are a lot of aspects of the modern internet that are entirely throw away. But, there's no shortage of us who were using the internet, both legally and illegally, before the world wide web existed, that didn't have the same corporate outlook that viewed the internet as simply a new marketplace for disposable crap. For us, it was an open library stock full of information that also opened up communication channels for free without risk that we never had before.

I got into this as a direct result of the hacker scene. I ran a relatively well known dial up BBS in the 908 area code that was open to all, with the sole purpose of spreading white, gray, and black information for people to use to benefit society. It was all accessable for free given the amount of time every user had in a day. Myself and my cosysops, and the sysops of the BBSs I was networked with, made no apologies for the information we made available and were willing to fight for it all the way up to the highest courts.

I absolutely HATED techno at this time, based on what I thought it was. My understanding of it was that it was all crap like 2Unlimited. However, based on a number of users on my system who wrote music with computers who wanted a place to distribute it, I created a file section for MOD files. This was, as I would later find out when I was dragged to my first rave by a friend, techno music. However, I just thought it was computer music. It was very much a product of the hacker culture we were all part of. The tools to make it were coded by hackers and distributed for free. The music was distributed for free. It contained messages and concepts that very much demonstrated how technology open up possibilities for people to make change or express themselves, with or without any recognition coming back to people, without any economic or hard learning curves that would prevent people from expressing themselves.

That ethic carried over into my production. Before I started using machines to make music, I played with bands that were all concerned about the money, playing the ass kissing game with labels and agents for exposure, etc. In addition, I dealt with no shortage of rock star egos that drove me up a ****ing wall in all but one band that I played with. At one point, I was playing bass, and sometimes programming beats on a drum machine, for 5 different bands, the majority of which were composed of obnoxious self-interested cunts. Once I started using the tools on a computer that were available to me to do music by myself on one machine, I pretty much stopped playing with bands entirely, and started working on music that was reflective of the culture that I was a part of. Very much around that time, I discovered "raves" and the culture with it, of which many of the people involved who I met in person were old hackers that I knew from the late 80's and early 90s. It all fit and, if the tracks weren't signed, they were available for free somewhere.

The expression of something bigger than yourself that can make you move, feel, and think was the most important part of it for me. Getting it signed never mattered. No artists that I knew, signed or unsigned, would ever think of blaming other artists who gave their music away for free as cutting into their livelihood. DJs who were connected tot he hacker culture never blamed DJs who were willing to spin for less as cutting into our bookings. That was largely because we were confident that, regardless of mass opinion, we all contributed something that was unique and fun and, even if cryptically, educational about a way of life that was out there.

That's my home. If anything, given how secretive my government has become, all while wantonly breaking the law, and how infiltrated the free expression culture has become by corporate or profit-based interests, that I think this shit is more important now than ever before. It's why I am honestly happy to see so many people putting their heart into what they do and distributing it for free. I've honestly found it more stressful for myself when money gets involved for reasons I laid out in earlier posts. Anyone who is smart enough to make music with computers is able to get a job that will pay their expenses while still allowing them to create and tour if they want to. It's why I will not hesitate to tell anyone to **** off if they say to me, with a straight face, that what I do is desttoying what they are doing. If that's actually the case, I say good. I can say that without much care for how one will feel as a result because I already know that I'm not a threat, largely because I never truly have been a part of the same industry they are, and never will be. And somehow, after going though lawschool and working every free day hour I had in the process, to then going to a full time job, it's never prevented me from making art, or having some music released. People like myself are not the enemy since we never gave a **** about the people making music for a living. We weren't trying to destroy it because we just didn't care about it, and the same is true now. Anyone who says otherwise is merely looking for a convenient scapegoat. I'm not about to sit back quietly and let others piss on what I do, and what I care about, just because they need something to blame for not being as popular as they once were. We weren't part of that equation then, and we aren't now. Abd, like it or not, we're not going anywhere. We're only going to get bigger, as has been demonstrated since this culture came to be decades ago and has grown more and more since. We're not the enemy unless you make us one. I am part of the computer underground culture. The internet, with the software running this board tha t transformed a one-way communication protocol into a two way one, is a direct byproduct of that. We are not disposable.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love the fact that some people managed to take it to a level that was distributed outside of the hacker or computer culture and make a living off of it. But, don't spit on the rest of us who have been there forever who just never cared to do the same. And that's a general comment, not one directed at you, Mark, as I happen to greatly respect what you and so many other UK and other European techno crews and labels have done.

[RDR]

perhaps they have a kid, or get married or whatever. and whether young people like it or not, when you get older, you tend to need more security, and you are forced to become a part of the machine that is human nature - those carefree days of living in squats/student accomadation smoking weed really do become a thing of the past.

I understand that, but i dont happen to agree, I got married and had kids and that is what gave the stability to crack on with my music. Sure relationships are difficult and kids take up your time, but it can work.

right now, these guys are having to either perform, or leave the music. this is such a travesty for the music and it will mean that all that knowledge, talent, years of manual reading, purely dedicated studio expertese will be lost forever.

+1, but then thats music isnt it? Change or die?

the other reason is that i've come to realise i actually don't like this throw away culture that's evolved out of the internet

+1 on that, see: my comment on FREE and its meaning.

jesus i sound like an old man now :lol:

Yes, yes you do... welcome to my world :lol:

[acidsaturation]

+ lots @ tocsin again.

I think a couple of issues here are that for some "Free" is not throwaway. The problem however is that many younger people do equate free with throwaway, and don't see the value in things that go outside a monetary system. Does that mean that those who'd like to work with that shouldn't? I think no, shame as it is that it gets abused.

The other thing is that there is a fair polarisation between those whose "job" is music and those for whom it isn't. Which is understandable. But as I said before I think there are worse culprits than people who give their own tunes away. And it seems to be a little bit of an "appeal to the goodhearted" - in the sense that the people sharing files they shouldn't aren't gonna listen, so lets see if the people who are giving legit stuff for free will....

Yeh, you need to make a living, but things do change. Also as tocsin said, there is NO reason for the experience to fade.

As I've said, I'd love it if I can make a few bob against the huge amount of kit I've paid for, but it won't stop me if I don't, and won't stop me giving stuff away. Maybe one day I'll have the time/inclination to promote myself more. But while I'm mainly doing stuff for fun, I don't want it stagnating on a hard drive.

I'm repeating myself here, I know.

But I really can't see how it's such a moral issue. I sympathise if people do think it might be costing them money. But I don't think we know for sure that it's the actual cause.

[detfella]

should music be given away free? imho NO, NO and NO again.

and the main reason why i say this is primarily because of the artists. i have seen SOOOOOO many talented older people who are just artists (not dj's) leave this game recently because of the fact that they finally come to realise that you do, actually need money to have a decent standard of living.

so is it different for warez or ebooks? you asked for links to torrent sites to download books a couple of months back. or maybe those people don't need the money like musicians?