A winge of sorts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

Then do something about it, critique people then. If you don't like the way something is then do your part to change it. Instead of complaining about it. If it's so much better to get critique on Msn then do what you gotta do there why shit on what goes on around here, like it is a crime to like what you hear, everyone hears different flaws. If you think something needs critique around here then open your mouth and say so, you guys have no issues voicing your opinions elsewhere.

---

I simply don`t have the time.

I am busy with commercial mastering work, as well as reviewing stuff for the radio show, and running personal critiques via msn and email.

I listen to a lot of what gets posted here, but to be honest, to critically analyse ONE track takes at least 15-20 minutes of listening, then you have to write about it.

I know you yourself don`t like critique, so this is the main drive of your commenting, but I`ve seen so many other people benefit from this part of the forum through critique, and go on to be amazing professional producers, it`s a shame for that to stop happening, as really, that was the best thing about this whole forum.

I myself benefitted from it endlessly in the early days, and did what I could over the following years to feed back the love, but all these newbies get offended too easily.

If you want props, go to your mates, they will allways tell you your tune is good, no matter how shit it is, but this place used to be great for objectivity.
I don`t see that so much now. And I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

All this "only make positive comments" is subjective. I am commenting positively in my eyes. By pointing out negatives you can surely inspire people to make a positive change.

If it was only smiles and kisses in the world, then we would have none of the great art we have now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by messanger

But I also think sometimes when people post critique...it's sometimes just opinion. Because we all hear and see things from a differant point of view. One persons opinion will varie from another. One might say needs more Bass, one might say...needs more highs about the very same tune.

I think a persons views on mastering is a matter of ones perceptions in what they want to hear too. Frankly if all things were mastered exactly the same value, wouldn't that make music overall less dynamic? Because maybe one person who writes a tune will intend it to sound a certain way....want certain elements to stick out more than others, then somebody else might have a totally differant idea of what sound they wish to achieve. I think having that variation is kind of nice.

I mean obviously if something is shit it's shit....No doubt about that. And truly while I do think mastering and mixdown is extremely important...I think some focus too much on that rather than the content of their music. Which is sad to me frankly.....

I mean...you can have the clearest sound of a pin dropping on the ground, but does that make it good music?

---

Hmm youdon`t really understand mixing and mastering if you can say this.
It`s fairly obvious when elements are badly eq`d or too loud, and isn`t really that subjective. Blatant problems are blatant problems.

It`s a good way of justifying bad production though ie
"dude, you bass and mid is really muddy, can`t hear a thing"

"oh I meant it to be that way"

"what, badly made?"

"no man, that`s my style!

"what, your style is shit-style?"

I mean obviously if something is shit it's shit....No doubt about that. And truly while I do think mastering and mixdown is extremely important...I think some focus too much on that rather than the content of their music. Which is sad to me frankly.....[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#000000][COLOR=silver]I mean...you can have the clearest sound of a pin dropping on the ground, but does that make it good music?

This final comment really holds no water in this day and age.

Everyone has access to the equipment now, pretty much, so there are far more "musicians" out there.

And quite frankly, judging by the amount of demos I get sent, there are many many many good techno musicians out there.

so making a "good tune" simply isn`t enough.

You need to make a good production as well to stand out above the mud heap.

I find it utterly pointless commenting about something as subjective as to wether a tune is good or not.
My good tune might be another persons cheese.
It really means nothing.

But you can be OBJECTIVE about production, because there are rules and trends and methods, and ways of working that you can effectively be right or wrong with. Especially on music designed for vinyl and soundsystems.

Even the Sex Pistols were well produced.

It`s not unachievable, to progress to a professional production level. It just requires work, research, and patience. Something lacking these days when most people can switch on fruity loops and make a tune in an hour, and then send it out expecting a release 2 hours later.


Sorry, I`m not really attacking you at all Brad, as you are someone who works hard on your production, and who genuinly has learned at improved.

Which is why I don`t understand your rather naieve comments.

I was trying to post really deep intelectual idea, but I just wanna say. Come on people if you think the track/production is shit, then say it.
Dont care who posted the track and say your opinion,. Those who cant accept critics just needs to step over their ego, nothing more nothing less. peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I simply don`t have the time.

I am busy with commercial mastering work, as well as reviewing stuff for the radio show, and running personal critiques via msn and email.

I listen to a lot of what gets posted here, but to be honest, to critically analyse ONE track takes at least 15-20 minutes of listening, then you have to write about it.

I know you yourself don`t like critique, so this is the main drive of your commenting, but I`ve seen so many other people benefit from this part of the forum through critique, and go on to be amazing professional producers, it`s a shame for that to stop happening, as really, that was the best thing about this whole forum.

I myself benefitted from it endlessly in the early days, and did what I could over the following years to feed back the love, but all these newbies get offended too easily.

If you want props, go to your mates, they will allways tell you your tune is good, no matter how shit it is, but this place used to be great for objectivity.
I don`t see that so much now. And I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

All this "only make positive comments" is subjective. I am commenting positively in my eyes. By pointing out negatives you can surely inspire people to make a positive change.

If it was only smiles and kisses in the world, then we would have none of the great art we have now.

---

My main drive for commenting was saying don't say anything about it if yourself do not plan on doing a thing about it. As far as critique is concerned I welcome critique but only when it comes from a sincere and helpful place, I've seen how cliques around here can swoop on someone like vultures looking for a kill. Myself I do plan on posting tracks here for objective feedback. Let it be known though that the same tracks your mates have ripped apart, certain huge name producers have absolutely loved and played in big festivals. so it's one of those things where you weigh it out, who do I listen to, the one who is out there making moves? Or the one who is over critical for the sake of standing on a platform.

constructive criticism: comments that a) point out flaws to be corrected and b) encourage the creator to improve the work in question.

leave out a) and all you have his mindless boosterism. leave out b) and you're just pissing on someone.

seems simple, really. a little praise for what works, suggestions on how to fix what doesn't.

i never post my sh*t on here but if i did, i wouldn't want someone to just say how great it was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BloodStar

Come on people if you think the track/production is shit, then say it.
Dont care who posted the track and say your opinion,. Those who cant accept critics just needs to step over their ego, nothing more nothing less. peace.

---

i couldnt agree more.

people need to learn that critic of a tune isnt critic of themselves

it just means they have a lot more to work at production wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

Hmm youdon`t really understand mixing and mastering if you can say this.
It`s fairly obvious when elements are badly eq`d or too loud, and isn`t really that subjective. Blatant problems are blatant problems.

It`s a good way of justifying bad production though ie
"dude, you bass and mid is really muddy, can`t hear a thing"

"oh I meant it to be that way"

"what, badly made?"

"no man, that`s my style!

"what, your style is shit-style?"

I mean obviously if something is shit it's shit....No doubt about that. And truly while I do think mastering and mixdown is extremely important...I think some focus too much on that rather than the content of their music. Which is sad to me frankly.....[/color]

[color=#000000][color=silver]I mean...you can have the clearest sound of a pin dropping on the ground, but does that make it good music?

This final comment really holds no water in this day and age.

Everyone has access to the equipment now, pretty much, so there are far more "musicians" out there.

And quite frankly, judging by the amount of demos I get sent, there are many many many good techno musicians out there.

so making a "good tune" simply isn`t enough.

You need to make a good production as well to stand out above the mud heap.

I find it utterly pointless commenting about something as subjective as to wether a tune is good or not.
My good tune might be another persons cheese.
It really means nothing.

But you can be OBJECTIVE about production, because there are rules and trends and methods, and ways of working that you can effectively be right or wrong with. Especially on music designed for vinyl and soundsystems.

Even the Sex Pistols were well produced.

It`s not unachievable, to progress to a professional production level. It just requires work, research, and patience. Something lacking these days when most people can switch on fruity loops and make a tune in an hour, and then send it out expecting a release 2 hours later.


Sorry, I`m not really attacking you at all Brad, as you are someone who works hard on your production, and who genuinly has learned at improved.

Which is why I don`t understand your rather naieve comments.

---

Steve, all i can say is if you feel that way, and you don't tell it to me before posting it on the net, you're obviously not my homie as you claim to be. Seems all you're trying to do is tear me down...but when we rap, it's a whole differant ball game.

At this point, we no longer have anything to say to one another. You claim this comment isn't a shot at me, but it obviously is. And you claim to be a brother of the craft....I don't see it. From this day forward, don't speak of me...don't breathe of me and don't think of me. I just can't believe that somebody I HAD (no more) so much respect for would bad mouth me in such a manner....somebody i thought would be happy that I'm doing well.

You basically called my music shit man....that's ****ed!!!!

Brad, i am sure Steve didn't call your music/production shit. This will be cleared up, no doubt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by messanger

Steve, all i can say is if you feel that way, and you don't tell it to me before posting it on the net, you're obviously not my homie as you claim to be. Seems all you're trying to do is tear me down...but when we rap, it's a whole differant ball game.

At this point, we no longer have anything to say to one another. You claim this comment isn't a shot at me, but it obviously is. And you claim to be a brother of the craft....I don't see it. From this day forward, don't speak of me...don't breathe of me and don't think of me. I just can't believe that somebody I HAD (no more) so much respect for would bad mouth me in such a manner....somebody i thought would be happy that I'm doing well.

You basically called my music shit man....that's ****ed!!!!

---

I think you need to re-read what I wrote there.
That litte quote conversation was just an imaginary scenario with a non excistant character.
You been with tony too long man, jumping off without reading clearly, I`ve not picked on your music at all.
In fact read my last sentence.

I think musically and production wise you are one of the good examples of consistant improvement. And as far as I am concerned you have gone from strength to strength.

I can't believe the way this thread has gone!

Has everybody stopped smoking weed at exactly the same time or something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by force

I can't believe the way this thread has gone!

Has everybody stopped smoking weed at exactly the same time or something?

---

hahahaha. i like that

You lot are such a bunch of bitches sometime! Stop ****ing arguing the toss and make some tunes. >:-{

To be perfectly honest, I can think of several times when people have commented on my tracks saying ''great'' or whatever, and its not that helpful! I agree with Steve, constructive critism is VERY important. Having said this, I think it takes a while of posting on here and making yourself ''known'' before people comment. In factI I can remember posting up a track and being told ''comment on a few peoples tracks and we might comment on yours'', which I thought was pretty weak.

Anyways, before someone gets COMPLETELY the wrong end of the stick, as seems to often happen around here: Ive found Dirty Bass's tutorials and posts to be very helpful, and I think Messanger has made some ****ing top tunes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I think you need to re-read what I wrote there.
That litte quote conversation was just an imaginary scenario with a non excistant character.
You been with tony too long man, jumping off without reading clearly, I`ve not picked on your music at all.
In fact read my last sentence.

I think musically and production wise you are one of the good examples of consistant improvement. And as far as I am concerned you have gone from strength to strength.

---

Why don't you address Brad instead of dragging my name into this. Brad does not live in my house, I do not influence Brad, he is perfectly capable of coming to his own conclusions. Don't bring my name into this again, that's the second time you've done it in this thread alone, get it through your head.

You are not the definition of perfect techno.
You are not the be all end all of what sounds good.
Your tastes do not define what techno is, should be, or what the potential of techno truly is.
If you are so bored with techno and so fed up with bad production and think that it is a lost cause then bounce, or flood the market with quality, you have labels, you have a radio show, go show the world what "good" techno is.
Be a man and keep my name out of your mouth.
So mote it be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SummerOfSam

Why don't you address Brad instead of dragging my name into this. Brad does not live in my house, I do not influence Brad, he is perfectly capable of coming to his own conclusions. Don't bring my name into this again, that's the second time you've done it in this thread alone, get it through your head.

You are not the definition of perfect techno.
You are not the be all end all of what sounds good.
Your tastes do not define what techno is, should be, or what the potential of techno truly is.
If you are so bored with techno and so fed up with bad production and think that it is a lost cause then bounce, or flood the market with quality, you have labels, you have a radio show, go show the world what "good" techno is.
Be a man and keep my name out of your mouth.
So mote it be.

---

When did I claim to be the definition of anything, I`m reading back through this post and I can`t seem to find it.


I know production. But I don`t claim to be the king of techno, and again, where do I claim to be bored of techno? or that things are a lost cause?
I wouldn`t be slaving in my studio writing a new production tutorial if I thought all hope was lost.
I don`t really claim anything about techno, other than that I know how to produce to a certain technical standard. Which is why I am paid to master music of all genres.
Nor do I really claim to judge "good" or "bad" techno. I know good and bad production however. Which you seem to have trouble separating.
Why would I want to flood the market with anything?
Now chill out, I know you got a problem with me, there`s no need for this to go any further is there? If you really wanna, then ask mark to open the Vex


Brad, I ain`t insulted you at all, read the words again. I may be a cantankerous old sod, but I never insult people in the way you seem to think I have with you (rather bizarrely)



...
...
...
...
....
...

Back on point.


Anyway, in conclusion, good, most people seem to be into constructive crit. Which is great. You`ll all help each other loads if you are brutally honest with your crit, and keep the subjective and personal side of it out of the way.
There is a massive difference between artistic/aesthetic critisism and practical/technical crit. As long as you don`t let your ego get in the way you can benefit loads. This place used to be like that and it really was fantastic.

I`ll try to offer a little production help when I can, but really I`m a little too busy these days to go through loads of tunes each week like I used too.

If you are having difficulty with a tune I will always reply to pm`s and try and help out if I can with your production woe`s.

I said keep my name out of your mouth for siting me with scapegoats for future reference in your posts. Everything else I said, take it for what it is.

I think a few people are reading things into posts that aren't there.

Back on topic..........., i've always been honest in feedback, im not the most technically gifted person in production but im always honest in what i'm hearing.
There's no point in posting tunes in here if you can't take contsructuve criticism, it's how people learn and develope their skills.

Now im as guilty as alot of people in that i've not posted much in here lately, as it takes so much time to listen to tracks, it's the area i save until last then i run out of time:ohdear:

starting from later today, i'll make sure i come in here first and listen to as many tracks as possible.

Steve, if I've misread you I'm sorry. It was really the whole hypathetical story that threw me for a loop. I can see that more so upon re-examination of your text. I fecking hate trying to communicate over the internet...shit is never 100% clear. I think I'm just going to a take a break from the whole forum thing for a moment. I'll still be about lurking.......

But if anyone wants to get in contact with me....

messbeat@yahoo.com = MSN

bradleemuzik@gmail.com = Google chat

www.myspace.com/bradleebeats = more than obvious.

Please forgive me for turning this thing into something it wasn't supposed to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by messanger

Steve, if I've misread you I'm sorry. It was really the whole hypathetical story that threw me for a loop. I can see that more so upon re-examination of your text. I fecking hate trying to communicate over the internet...shit is never 100% clear. I think I'm just going to a take a break from the whole forum thing for a moment. I'll still be about lurking.......

But if anyone wants to get in contact with me....

messbeat@yahoo.com = MSN

bradleemuzik@gmail.com = Google chat

www.myspace.com/bradleebeats = more than obvious.

Please forgive me for turning this thing into something it wasn't supposed to be.

---

Your good man, I don`t think you`ve lost face here so it`s all cool, I apologise for not being a little more clear in my wording (I never use the damn preview button). We all over react from time to time, and there`s no need to dissapear dude, I think most here know you got a big heart and strong passion.

And for you in regards to the craft I say

"A brother may not always see his brother eye to eye in all points, but all things can still be on the level, and carried out fair and square"

The craft does not make us perfect, but merely points us the path to improvement and enlightenment.

Right then..

"Even the Sex Pistols were well produced." Of course they were... malcom mclaren managed them innit.

Now, im NOT a moderator of this section but i firmly beleive that the following rules should be in place here.

This should be an objective place to review music. not one for personal attacks, go PM for that if you please.


Im going to ensure that we have some ground rules laid out here. i say this as a rep for BOA and not as a person who knows people who have posted here.

it sounds horrid even to my ears, but if thats what it takes, then that is what will happen.

I don`t think it`s needed mate really. Things were fine in here, I merely made a post to suggest that there should be more constructive crit. Then all hell broke loose, more down to personal issues, rather than the post itself, I`m sure it won`t flare up again.