Vinyl vs Digital - Which do you buy?

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Originally Posted by xfive

Call me cynical but..

Neither.

I can't remember the last time I heard anything worth buying...

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:laughing: you and me both, man

seriously though...my question for all the little subarguments (djing vs live PA, vinyl vs ableton)...does it really matter? djing with vinyl is the classic way of doing things, like reading a book. ableton is like playing a video game. they both have merits, they both have limits. they both provide fundamentally different experiences. on one side, you have people working with limited tools, but NO, it's not just motor skills. case in point: derrick may or jeff mills in their prime. nothing, IMO, beats a great performance by a dj. but few people are jeff mlls or derrick may. most djs play very drab sets just mixing and no cutting and little creativitiy. so ableton gives you tools to do all kind of crazy sh*t you can't do with just 2 or 3 decks, and it can really make the average techno performance a lot more interesting. i've seen fantastic, exciting abelton sets from people i know are very boring vinyl djs. even great vinyl djs can and should mess around with ableton so they stay fresh (unlike jeff mills, e.g.). so there's room for both of them.

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Originally Posted by Traxx

You use beatport?

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No, mainly been using Juno and Bleep.

I don't buy much Techno digitally, as we don't (always) have CD decks in the club.

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Originally Posted by Traxx

i got a gift card with my cd deck and used the credits on it for some more tunes. Now when i click on download mp3 icon next to the track (in my ready to download section) nothing happens. IE doesnt say its blocking it or nothin just no result. Tried the FAQ's but they done seem to have the answer.

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Sounds a bit weird.

Tried emailing them?

Online music vendors are normally good at sorting this kind of stuff out in my experience. On the grounds that if you're happy you're more likely to come back and spend more money!

I've got a free voicher for 50 tunes from eMusic which came with my mp3 player, but I haven't looked yet.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

I've been buying electronica stuff from bleep.com and juno, and I have to say that the whole digital download experience is really something. You listen to clips, you say "I'll have that", you pay £1 or so a track, then in minutes it's downloaded to your HD.

Someone was telling me they were in a club a couple of months back, and someone asked the DJ if they had a certain tune, and he said no, but he had a 3G card so he went onto the internet, bought the tune, and then played it.

Pretty smooth.

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now that is service. would you like fries with that :)

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

on one side, you have people working with limited tools, but NO, it's not just motor skills.

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I agree, but I think outside the motor skills there is no difference between using decks, CD decks or Ableton.

At the end of the day, once you have 2 (or 3, or 4) pieces of music locked in time with each other,all the wizardry is done on the mixer - and thats true whatever your medium is.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

Steady now...

You can't come onto an internet forum asking questions like "who buys vinyl and who buys digital", throwing around massively crass generalisations like "DJing off a laptop is boring" and expect everybody else to keep their opinions to themselves.

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Only because it turned into a 'which means is better for djing' kinda discussion.....

The minute I voiced my opinion and personal preference - based on my own experience with using such djing tools - then proceeded to tell you WHY I choose one method of djing over another - you people have to jump on my shit. Is this like a male ego thing that I dont understand that you have to do this every single time ANYONE who might have a different opinion/preference than yours says something?

I wasnt saying that my way was BETTER - I was simply saying WHY I chose one thing over another - and basing it on my own personal experience - because this is the way you people turned this thread. Did I say to any one of YOU that you suck for using ableton for djing or cdjs in this thread? No. Did I say that none of you should use these means to dj? Nooooooooo.

That was not the original intention of this poll, but once again, a perfectly simple question/thread has to degenerate into a big piece of crap on here.

I realize that you all seem to get off on waving your cocks around at each other on this board, but stop trying to involve me in your circle jerk.....


To everyone who has at least answered the poll so far, I appreciate it.....I will be sure to disclose why I wanted to know about purchasing habits eventually.....for now, it's too soon for me to say anything.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

I agree, but I think outside the motor skills there is no difference between using decks, CD decks or Ableton.

At the end of the day, once you have 2 (or 3, or 4) pieces of music locked in time with each other,all the wizardry is done on the mixer - and thats true whatever your medium is.

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i disagree. any choice of medium creates boundaries and opportunities. the time it takes to pull a record out, ability to scratch, the way someone recovers from a record skip, etc. all of these derive from the use of vinyl only. as for motor skills, well, the USE of motor skills is a creative choice! i'm not saying there's a better or worse, just that there is a difference. people make choices which media they want to work with, but every choice yields advantages and disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by DJ Becka

Only because it turned into a 'which means is better for djing' kinda discussion.....

The minute I voiced my opinion and personal preference - based on my own experience with using such djing tools - then proceeded to tell you WHY I choose one method of djing over another - you people have to jump on my shit. Is this like a male ego thing that I dont understand that you have to do this every single time ANYONE who might have a different opinion/preference than yours says something?

I wasnt saying that my way was BETTER - I was simply saying WHY I chose one thing over another - and basing it on my own personal experience - because this is the way you people turned this thread. Did I say to any one of YOU that you suck for using ableton for djing or cdjs in this thread? No. Did I say that none of you should use these means to dj? Nooooooooo.

That was not the original intention of this poll, but once again, a perfectly simple question/thread has to degenerate into a big piece of crap on here.

I realize that you all seem to get off on waving your cocks around at each other on this board, but stop trying to involve me in your circle jerk.....


To everyone who has at least answered the poll so far, I appreciate it.....I will be sure to disclose why I wanted to know about purchasing habits eventually.....for now, it's too soon for me to say anything.

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you really need to get down off your whole men vs women buzz that you seem to throw arouns quite a lot.. and not just on this forum but others aswell.. this has nothing to do with you being a female and everything to do with people voicing their opinion.. JUST LIKE YOU VOICED YOURS!

you had this arguement with me b4 and decided that because i gave my opinion back that i was "getting on your shit" .. just chill the fuk out and let others do what they want.. worry about your own shit for a change.

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Originally Posted by Traxx

Very smooth. You use beatport? i got a gift card with my cd deck and used the credits on it for some more tunes. Now when i click on download mp3 icon next to the track (in my ready to download section) nothing happens. IE doesnt say its blocking it or nothin just no result. Tried the FAQ's but they done seem to have the answer.

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never had that problem on beatport, have you made sure your firewall isn't blocking them?

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

i disagree. any choice of medium creates boundaries and opportunities. the time it takes to pull a record out, ability to scratch, the way someone recovers from a record skip, etc. all of these derive from the use of vinyl only. as for motor skills, well, the USE of motor skills is a creative choice! i'm not saying there's a better or worse, just that there is a difference. people make choices which media they want to work with, but every choice yields advantages and disadvantages.

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You really think watching a DJ rummaging in a bag for his next tune or dealing with a record skip is compulsive viewing?

I totally hear you on the scratching, but I'd suggest that's a minority of a minority of people. Oh, and I've seen a few people (DJ Food and Max Cooper being vivid examples) totally scratch the fuck out of a CDJ-1000 and it sound amazing.

I get the feeling I'm being misread here. I love DJing vinyl as much as the next guy, and as I said I get 99% of my Techno on vinyl. I just can't understand anyone who dismisses the alternatives as inherently less compelling.

@Becka: I totally hear what you're saying, and the only point I was taking issue with was when you said that you found using Ableton boring. That's it.

Apologies if that loosely translates as waving my cock around.

Oh, I answered the poll as well. :)

I buy 95% of my stuff digitally. I much prefer the ease of just going onto Beatport or Audiojelly and paying my £1.49 and getting my hands on a tune in a couple of minutes.

When I was growing up, I never had decks and I just wasn't really that interested in buying vinyl, something that I now really regret, but for the last 15 years, I've just been collecting CD's obssesively. I just love using CD decks cause of all the functions and features that they offer.

Just out of interest, I was wondering if any of you lot buy your digital downloads in WAV format. I know Beatport has just recently started offering their music in WAV files, and they aren't too expensive either, but personally, I just settle for 320kb MP3s.
I know that most DJ's just don't fell that MP3's are good enough in quality but I've put lot's of CD's together with tunes that I've ripped onto my computer and I actually struggle to notice any real difference from the 320kb MP3's and the original version on CD.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

you had this arguement with me b4 and decided that because i gave my opinion back that i was "getting on your shit" .. just chill the fuk out and let others do what they want.. worry about your own shit for a change.

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I DO worry about my own shit, which is another reason why I hardly post on here.....I merely came on here to ask ONE simple question and it turns into crap.....you know what.....I'm not even repeating myself on here.....learn how to read....

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Originally Posted by Martin Dust

Well we may as well talk about spoons and forks :)

I just don't get why techno dj's, of all people, don't like change and choose to cling to past like it's some kind rite of passage.

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It`s all about the egg whisks now.
Although there is a debate over the electric ones, some people say they make it too easy to whisk your egg.

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Originally Posted by michael00elder

Just out of interest, I was wondering if any of you lot buy your digital downloads in WAV format. I know Beatport has just recently started offering their music in WAV files, and they aren't too expensive either, but personally, I just settle for 320kb MP3s.
I know that most DJ's just don't fell that MP3's are good enough in quality but I've put lot's of CD's together with tunes that I've ripped onto my computer and I actually struggle to notice any real difference from the 320kb MP3's and the original version on CD.

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I've bought stuff in FLAC format a few times.

320kbps mp3 does the job though.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

It`s all about the egg whisks now.
Although there is a debate over the electric ones, some people say they make it too easy to whisk your egg.

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I just can't enjoy an omellete unless I've manually beat the eggs.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

I just can't enjoy an omellete unless I've manually beat the eggs.

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Quote of the month!!!!!


From this
Vinyl vs Digital - Which do you buy?

to this
I just can't enjoy an omellete unless I've manually beat the eggs.

Sometimes, I love this place.

I utterly refuse to eat eggs with anything other than chopsticks.

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Originally Posted by dubs

I utterly refuse to eat eggs with anything other than chopsticks.

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Plastic or wooden?

do i really need to answer that question?

Wow, I guess respect costs too much these days.

I can't see anybody disrespecting anybody round here, just a dicussion, i suppose that's the problem with forums, we all read different things from the same posts

My whole point is do your own thing, take it as far as you can and then add some more risks - it don't matter what you use or what anyone elses uses for that matter. The question or answer won't make any difference to the end result, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Martin Dust

it don't matter what you use or what anyone elses uses for that matter. The question or answer won't make any difference to the end result, IMHO.

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exactly.. who cares.. good music is good music no matter where it comes from.

So I'm the only one who buys Techno on sheet music? You lot have sold out, maaan.

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Originally Posted by judas_beast

So I'm the only one who buys Techno on sheet music? You lot have sold out, maaan.

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That's original.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

exactly.. who cares.. good music is good music no matter where it comes from.

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For me this is where your head needs to be at, I can understand Becka being interested in asking questions and getting frustrated at the replies but for me everything comes from standing in front of the decks or machines and when I'm not there, I'm out getting influenced or asleep. In this case the devil isn't in the detail but asking the wrong questions of yourself.

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

exactly.. who cares.. good music is good music no matter where it comes from.

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in know anyone over here would agree on that.
but it's like we don't make the rules baby!

I have a question...

Is anyone making any money from digital downloads?

Or are they just a way of getting your music out to more people, promoting a label, promoting your name etc?

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

I have a question...

Is anyone making any money from digital downloads?

Or are they just a way of getting your music out to more people, promoting a label, promoting your name etc?

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there is some money to be made. depends who you go with

beatport are quite good.. trackitdown dont make you much.

It`s all about itunes.
But they reem you.
even then, you can still do well

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

I have a question...

Is anyone making any money from Vinyl?

Or are they just a way of getting your music out to more people,, promoting your name etc?

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Vinyl has become nothing more than a very expensive business card.
And having a label means nothing any more.
Look at juno
There`s a new "whatever label" 001 every week by someone.
There`s about as many labels as there are producers and DJ`s now.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

And having a label means nothing any more.
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unless you make it a label that means something to people.. which, unfortunatly, are thin on the ground.

It`s not so much that man, it`s just the sheer level of new labels every week, it has made people take new labels less seriously.
Getting avoice as a new producer on a new label is a real tough thing to do, but everyone thinks it is the way forward.

And this is what happens with most new labels.
To get the sales up and for 002 to go anywhere, new labels go for a big name.
Let`s say Dave Clark for example.
Record sells.
Why, because of Dave Clark.
Fans that bought it for Dave Clark will then buy whatever other release Dave Clark does next month, and said new label, who doesn`t have big name for following release, gets overlooked again.
So you get caught in the trap of making your label an outlet for the big names, which defeats the purpose.
OR you need to do something really original, which of course means taking a risk, which few are willing to do, and fewer distributers are willing to distribute.

You`ll see for yourself, running labels is no walk in the park.
Good luck by the way.

ive already pulled all my hair out at this stage with it:ohdear:

its possibly the hardest thing i've ever done.. having to learn everything involved with it. the music part seems to be the least of my worries.

but i agree that there are 1001 new labels evertime i open up beatport. hopefully by keeping our runs on the small side we can build on each release and actually releasing on vinyl seems to be a novelty aswell so that will hopefully stand to our favour.

i know its not a 100% indication of sales but our orders for 01 are doing very well so far.

plus, and i think this is the most important factor.. this has been a long time planned, so the money is there to take us thru bad sales if that happens.

without proper financial backing and planning it would be madness and possibly very short lived

I think anyone financing and backing a label properly is in fact mad.


It helps.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I think anyone financing and backing a label properly is in fact mad.


It helps.

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he who dares...

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Originally Posted by rhythmtech

he who dares...

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Damn right.

Think its the same as running a night. Costs you money, takes ages to get up and running - but once your established you reap the benefits in many other ways than just the door tax.

You get access to people you would otherwise never speak to, you make friends you would never come across otherwise and you feel more plugged into the scene you love. You network, you get opportunities presented to you by way of reciprocity, you personally gain if you produce or dj...

Plus you get an opportunity to do things how you want. On your terms.

Oh of course there are benefits.
But these benefits are less so now.
I would agree with everything you said maybe 4 years ago.
We are still in a state of flux right now, and no one seems to know which side the coin is gonna land.

To continue the analogy we've seen half a dozen well known nights pack up in Brighton, and we've carried on pretty strong. I'm sure we'll go the same way in the end and someone else will say the same about us.

We've seen plenty of nights try and fail as well, not through lack of trying and not through lack of quality.

The thing that seems to stand you apart is actually having some staying power, and having the balls to back yourself and see the thing through.

People need to time to become aware of your brand, whatever your brand is. Nobody is going to cut through the clutter these days with one attempt.

Everyone is pining for brands that stand for something - trusted sources. You don't get that kind of positioning straight off.

Believe in yourself, keep doing what you do, be prepared to lose money and budget accordingly. If you've got the balls you'll see it through, and reap the benefit.

I prefer mixing with vinyl/cds. I enjoy having to beat match my records - there's not really any more thought to it than that for me. There's a lot of skill involved in mixing records well.

As various people have said in this thread it all comes down to whatever you like doing.

If I was just getting into this music now I might not have bought some decks. But I did (back when vinyl was everything) and now I love buying vinyl and having a record collection.

Regarding running a label - well it's true that there's a ridiculous amount of different labels and some of the stuff released is of a very poor standard. But I don't begrudge anyone setting up their own label and having a go if they want to. It's their time and money.

Everyone keeps saying how bad things are in terms of record sales and that techno is on a continually downward spiral, but people shouldn't quit or get disheartened by that. Just keep doing your thing and enjoy it for the sake of it - maybe one day things will start to turn round here in the UK.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

To continue the analogy we've seen half a dozen well known nights pack up in Brighton, and we've carried on pretty strong. I'm sure we'll go the same way in the end and someone else will say the same about us.

We've seen plenty of nights try and fail as well, not through lack of trying and not through lack of quality.

The thing that seems to stand you apart is actually having some staying power, and having the balls to back yourself and see the thing through.

People need to time to become aware of your brand, whatever your brand is. Nobody is going to cut through the clutter these days with one attempt.

Everyone is pining for brands that stand for something - trusted sources. You don't get that kind of positioning straight off.

Believe in yourself, keep doing what you do, be prepared to lose money and budget accordingly. If you've got the balls you'll see it through, and reap the benefit.

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I agree, and I think the best advice for anyone looking to start a label in the techno scene, is to throw preconceptions about big hits, marketing etc out of the window.
The market is too small for that, and those days are gone.
Treat it as fun, approach it as something you do for love, and don`t have any expectations. There`s little point in over marketing or aiming for a target audience, I think staying true to your passion, and striving for originality will do you more in terms of personal rewards.
Keep your business wits about you, but don`t treat it too much as a business.
As in terms of business models, a techno label is fairly ludicrous.

So you may as well just have pure fun with it.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

It`s not so much that man, it`s just the sheer level of new labels every week, it has made people take new labels less seriously.

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agreed. flooding the market is also not usually terribly good for the market's durability. i mean, fair dos to anyone who wants to publish themselves. their right and good luck to them. but the cumulative effect of many such ventures--especially those that are low-grade--is damaging. vinyl sales overall decline, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

To continue the analogy we've seen half a dozen well known nights pack up in Brighton, and we've carried on pretty strong. I'm sure we'll go the same way in the end and someone else will say the same about us.

We've seen plenty of nights try and fail as well, not through lack of trying and not through lack of quality.

The thing that seems to stand you apart is actually having some staying power, and having the balls to back yourself and see the thing through.

People need to time to become aware of your brand, whatever your brand is. Nobody is going to cut through the clutter these days with one attempt.

Everyone is pining for brands that stand for something - trusted sources. You don't get that kind of positioning straight off.

Believe in yourself, keep doing what you do, be prepared to lose money and budget accordingly. If you've got the balls you'll see it through, and reap the benefit.

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Spot on.

Dom's attitude with Pure Filth is just to put on the music we want to hear.

Couldn't care less about making money, just 100% putting on the kind of night that we would want to go to if we weren't busy putting on nights.

Absolutely no point compromising your vision to make a fast buck, as "the crowd" is a fickle beast that it's nigh-on impossible to predict.

Do what you want, believe in what you do, and if you happen to make a killing on the night then put a good chunk in the pot for next month and redistribute the remains accordingly to the people who made it happen.

i still buy both, but the overwhelming majority these days is digital. with the economy in the toilet, and promoters loathe to actually pay djs worth a shit, i just can't be arsed to spend hundreds a week on tunes when i can spend a small percentage of that and have just as many great tunes.

i use vinyl when i feel like it, serato when it's available, cds if i am not wanting to cart my shit around or i know the setup will be wobbly, and ableton when i play dubstep (because the tunes are not always dj friendly for a techno-minded girl and i like to do my own instant edits). my next step in the evolution is to mix ableton WITH turntables. still working on that, but it will happen soon. my boy gizzmo and i are also getting geared up for a turntables vs. ableton set (as me and adam jay have done before, to great effect).

so basically, the plethora of choices has just made djing that much more fun for me because i can do whatever i want, whenever i want. i have no complaints whatsoever.

oh and p.s. if some wanker wants to give me shit for using anything other than vinyl, i tell the ****ers if they wanna shell out hundreds for my tunes, then they can actually have a say in what medium i play. until then, they can go frak themselves.

Some really interesting views here... enjoying reading it.

I have to say some of steve's comments make me feel a bit uneasy about doing what im doing, but never the less its not going to slow me down.

I happen to believe that the 'Coin in the air' thinking is a positive in my book. People will always want to buy good music and the manner in which they buy it has always been in flux in one way or another. Therefore change is inevitable.

Running a label, sure thats a toughie fo' sho' but im not gonna let up with my efforts. Money is certainly an issue but only as far as presentation goes.

There are a lot of things to be taken into consideration when selling music, content, presentation and what seems to be the most important at the moment - consumer accesibility and content protection.

the subscription model is a seemingly good one, but i can help feeling its industry led and geared towards the bubblegum markets rather than the niche markets such as techno.

Someone else said that physical product is something they still consider, and i agree with this. physical product is something i personally want and im willing to bet that everyday people still do. Hence the r3tox shop will be selling CDs as well as the labels MP3's through BP and Juno et al.

Diversity certainly seems to be the key and i for one am more interested in selling quality electronic music / dance rather than 'niching.'

Time will tell what happens with the industry but i do know this, the big labels are notoriously slow to react to changes wihtin the industry and its usually the independants who lead the way musically. We shall see which way the coin falls, but for the moment setting up a label is probably a good thing on balance.

On a more personal note, i enjoy this business and its challenges and i really think that working in this field gives me as a techno fan the biggest opporunity to really push the sound of the fantastic artists and producers who have had the kindness to help me.

Regards

Chris.