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I think radiohead did it right, and i plan to do something similar myself.
Releasing you album for free with an optional donation system on your website/myspace etc is an excellent idea. It cuts out labels, distributors, shops/downloads sites which means if someone gives you a euro for 12 tracks you get the euro. rather then 12 euro for 12 tracks and you only get 50% of 50% of 50% of 50% or whatever bs. not that you didn't know that already lol
my 2p:Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
My experience of trying to sell my album made me re-evaluate everything- I took about 18 months out of making music after that experience as it depressed me deeply at the time - but in the end I really wanted to make music again, so I made music because I wanted to - this is the best reason to make music and the results are much better for it - When I was earning a living from music, I had a lot of time to write stuff, but I really don't think the quality was necessarily any better. You lose the hunger for it, and also you feel that you should be making music even if you have no good ideas, because it's your job. You make trax out of liveset trax which you had to write just because you had a live gig you had to do to pay the rent. You then try and sell the trax to a label as you need to maximise the income for the work. Then you meet the Artistic freedom vs market forces argument which often happens with labels, where the label is telling you "oh it has to be more like this or like that" to sell units. Changing your style, even slightly, just to sell records is the biggest mistake you can ever make as then you are diluting your own artistic vision - therefore diluting you uniqueness, which, if you have a lot of originality, is the card you are playing -
giving stuff away for free gives you the ultimate freedom to express yourself exactly the way you want to- no label saying "oh, make it more like this/make it more like that".. for the money that can be made out of mp3 or even Vinyl releases it's not worth diluting yourself just to get on this or that label. As Henry says labels can be a pain to deal with anyway.. and whilst it is a buzz to hear people playing your stuff out - if that is your sole motivation behind making music, to "get somewhere", I really think you should be making a style of music which is more popular - if you try and do it with techno/IDM you will be sorely disappointed.
People know my name, and I get a few gigs a year - but I still have to work 9-5 to live - many people are under the illusion that once you get picked up by a big label, that's it, you have no worries, your life is going to be like something out of MTV "Cribs". doesn't work like that. I guess giving some stuff away for free has probably helped in some way, but I think doing a weekly mix has helped me more as far as getting gigs is concerned - but it's hard to say, as these things come in waves, you might do no records and have an amazing gig year, you might do 10 releases and have a slack year...
I am new to this forum and so far I am begining to feel at home here. After reading this thread I fealt I had to add.
I have been away from the 'music business' and recently decided I had to do it again. Simply to just be creative.
My job is boring, no suprise there we probably all hate our jobs however I make computer games for a living. I won't argue it should be the most fun in the world you can get paid to do. I thought it would be great but like everything else these days created on a computer there is no market any longer for computer games with any kind of plot or substance because people download so much. This means publishers just want a version of the biggest selling game that year. So I find that I had to get back to the music to vent my creative passion.
Mark actually talked me into it and I am glad he did.
Basically I started writing 'techno' in the early 90's and it was new and exciting the scene was alive. As the years went on it changed and morphed through many phases. The one thing that has always remained constant is the style I choose to do. No one could ever really put it into a genre and I used to hate that.
However. That is, irronically, why Iam now writing techno again. Because you can do what you want.
I have friends in the rock and pop worlds and they have to conform so much that it is upsetting. I don't. I can go home after a shitty day at work and hammer out some group of sounds and rhythms that capture that mood forever.
I released a song on Cluster once that I am really glad the Liberator boys released quite simply because it was pure punk. My boss had pissed me off at work I came home and wrote it in an hour. It was pure emotion. The song was ready from the night before and I came home and whacked all the levels on the desk up to overload and recorded it.
Anyway back on topic.
I dont think anything has changed since 7 years ago when I stopped writing to now when I have returned.
Yes we have more tools and yes we can get our work heard by someone in Austrailia minutes after we upload it. But in the early 90's it was just as hard for me. Take away the internet and software and roll back time and you have the same disadvantages you have today.
I had to post demos. I couldn't afford the equipment that LFO had. So it was harder to get together a good demo on a tight budget. But I never gave up.
Now it's the other way round. The sounds are easy to get and the equipment is far cheaper. So when balanced out all you have left is raw talent.
Make something good and people will listen, make something different and they won't forget.
In the past music was about capturing an emotion that could relate to others the great thing about techno is you can do that, anyone can.
To get back on point. I will happily let people have my music for free if they REALLY want it. If it makes them feel something then it has served it's purpose. If you crave fame then maybe that will only come through hard work as it always has done. I have always made sure I dont have to live on my music so that I can be free to do what I want to do.
People I know in bands are always saying to me 'must be great to just hammer out what you want when you want' and I say 'yeah but it can be lonely sometimes' :D. Everything has pros ad cons.Those people in that band got a 500 000 quid advance, which they are still paying back some 15 years on because the label dropped them.
I am sorry about the length of my first post here but the subject is an important one and I am extremely interested in peoples views having been away for a while. As Mark said 'my 2 pence worth'.
http://www.myspace.com/scottrobinsontechno
nice first post scott... and man i remember your stuff from years ago! think i used to hammer out a tune of yours on cluster?
I want some free music but I don't want to steal it or download it illegally, who are some singers who give away their music for free? Like they choose to give it away and want people to download it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott_robinson
I made a website using Actionscript!!!!!! Can I have a job!?? :cheese:
So we all think it should all be free. Give me your music NOW! haha
So, you would rather release music which is a compromise on your own vision over giving away stuff which is exactly how you want it to sound rather than have it rotting away on your hard drive with no-one hearing it? How is someone gonna steal something which no label will release because in their eyes it's "too much of a risk"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Microdot
and how exactly do mainstream pop/rock acts giving away music for free damage sales of techno music? sorry, I just don't understand how your points make sense.. Techno/electronic music has become less and less popular for years, definitely since the heady days of 1995/1996. There's no point in being bitter (I'm not saying you necessarily are) about the fact it's very very difficult to earn a living from it. Surely if you are making stuff it's better to get it out there in whatever way you can than just be sat on stuff because there are no labels around which consider your music viable to release on conventional formats. I'm seeing this personally as the greatest opportunity ever to be able to break out of any creative ruts I've been stuck in in the past and to do stuff which is really different without worrying about compromising any kind of "Careeer" I might have once had...
I have always released music that is exactly how I've wanted it to sound and never compromised on my own vision, and have never given it away for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
well, you're lucky to be in that position.. Myself, I don't have that privilege.. So, what are you saying exactly, that no-one else should give their music away, just because you haven't been put in that position yourself? Just interested to know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Microdot
No, people can do what they want. But everyone giving their music away for free will create more problems than it will solve.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
Exactly.
IF music should be free then why not everything else.
Why pay for shoes, or groceries or anything that some amount of work has been done to produce.
To be really good at music and production takes a lot of time and hard work.
It`s not something you can do in the evening as a little hobby if you are serious about it.
I think a balance between giving stuff out for the fans and also keeping some stuff for purchase or donation is better.
Otherwise everything becomes devalued.
It`s such a complicated situation though, a simple answer isn`t possible.
These are very very frustrating times, but digital media is still young, and I think piracy protection is going to become stronger (for good or for bad) and we will see an end to piracy, on the scale it is at now anyway.
It`s a case of riding out the rough weather maybe.
Personally I have found another way doing what I enjoy in music to pay the rent, which has freed me up to release music that would have been more risky. And I can be more self indulgent (and pretentious) in what music I put out there.
**** knows basically. Do what you need to do to survive, but also, Never give up, never lose hope, never compromise and never sell out.
Impossible ey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
totally stupid idea.
in a karmic sense you might aswell slash your own throat.
everything is worth something.
if you give it away for free, then it is worthless to you and everybody else.
So, if I end up giving away the music I really want to get out there, because no label would release it, that's going to cause more problems than it solves? Keeping stuff on my HD and not letting anyone else hear it because we're trying to maintain some kind of monetary value on music just seems to be sticking your head into the sand to me - Personally, I'm in no way talking about giving EVERYTHING i do away for free - But I have new sounds and ideas I want to get out there - And it's not happening as far as labels are concerned - Maybe you lot who bang on so much about not giving stuff away for free would like to fund a Vinyl label for me to release the most cutting edge stuff I am making, then maybe I wound't need to give it away for free eh? It's not like I'm an unknown and it's not like my trax are shit- it's just that they don't fit into a pidgeon-hole - this is where my problem lies....
@ Jay: Word, hit the nail on the head....
This is why Live performance is so important now, more important than ever - Do you charge for a DJ Mix or a Live performance recording? and surely, if you're NOT charging for a live performance recording, maybe you should be seeing as it's your own original work? What's the difference between giving away a Live performance recording and an EP for free in real terms? I think we have to see the recorded music side of things as pure promo - and do any of you on here really think you can earn a living from techno music in the 21st century purely from sales of recordings? That is the old model - it's time to move on...
Music becomes devalued the minute you start selling your choons in tesco and start comprimising and giving comperate ****ers 75% the fee of your choon. The fact that the value of a choon is now the amount of records you can sell of it devalues it.
I agree with Crime. Old model needs new ways. Music is MORE THAN ****ING MONEY.
You lot can give your music away free to me any time. Vinyl preferred :-)
Nail on the fcuking head mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
Until we completely break down the structures of capitalist culture and rebuild our entire society based on some kind of Anarchist/Communist utopia, we can't afford to devalue our profession/contribution to society by giving our music away for free.
Entertainment is an important part of society as sre Blacksmiths, Greengrocers, Mechanics, Engineers etc.
None of these other dudes are expected to work for free, or are even considering it as a way of combating an economic downturn.
My heart truly bleeds for folk who are struggling to get their music heard but, if truth be told, they are in no worse situation than struggling artists of the previous few decades.
The point here though is not about giving everything away for free - of course, if you played live for free, DJed for free, yes, that would devalue the whole thing. Comparing trades like Engineering, Retail and the like and Performing arts is like comparing apples and oranges - people don't need music to live in the same way that people need food & their drains fixed - it's just that now, with so many other people giving their self made music for free the goalposts have been moved somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Microdot
Say I have some music, as I do, that no record label currently trading sees as commercially viable to release as the amount of money made wouldn't cover the production costs as the fan base is too small - am I supposed to just leave it on my hard-drive, and not let anyone listen to it for the greater good? Surely you give away recordings of DJ mixes/Live acts as promotion in order to get bookings? How different is that to giving away a few freebies now and then to keep certain styles of music alive which would otherwise not be heard, and ultimately be buried because no-one heard them?
As I said before, I truly believe live performance is where it's at these days, and to be honest, I feel it's the creators of the tools with which to make music who are the real innovators in this day and age...
Entertainment/art is a MASSIVELY important part of culture.
It takes us away from the drudgery of toil, the horro of exchanging your time for money. It is the pleasure we have when we are not working.
I don`t like the way it is becoming devalued, it does seem very wrong.
But at the same time, I don`t like the fact it is commodified.
****ing planet sucks.
Well, struggling artists traditionally, in the uk anyway, went on the dole and got by that way.
haha, I`m not saying it`s the best way, but it is is what it is, and many great bands began that way.
I think people are less patient now, they want everything yesterday, so this is another part of the problem, and so is consumer culture, but blah
money is a fact of life. people who labor for our enjoyment deserve to be compensated for it, so they can continue to do so. otherwise they starve, or cut back their time doing those things.
okay, fine...so electronic music's business model has always been more based upon gigs than record sales. but record sales, through established labels, is a tried and true way of getting said gigs. so i just see it as a slippery slope, and one that would likely produce greater and greater concentrated power in the hands of los superstars. too much democratization, too quickly, likely fuels oligarchy.
the replies that most people are putting here are the same answers that get posted time and time again on forums broaching this subject.. yawn..
Nobody has answered my 2 main questions here - I'm not saying people shouldn't be paid for their hard work or that all music should be free -
but what are your opinions on:
1. The fact I feel the need to give material away for free as it's the only way it will be heard.
and
2. how different is giving say an EP away for free once in a blue moon different to putting a promotional live set recording online..
is anyone saying you shouldn't give EPs away for free from time to time, though? i think most people are just against the general tendency to give everything away for free and totally bypass the existing consumer-label-distributor-artist system.
I guess I just feel that the existing model stinks, just seems to me that there are a whole lot of middle men not really doing much but have got themselves in a position where they are scraping off the cream on the back of the musicians' hard work - maybe I should bite the bullet, start a paid for mp3 label, give it 6 months and actually see where the land lies... I just don't like the idea of lining others' pockets whilst getting ripped yet again...
Give it away online if you want but, I'd be more inclined to sell it online.Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
There's tons of sites you can upload your trax to and then sell them, and most pay the same commission as the established download sites, such as Juno and Beatport.
What if my musics so shit even I don't want to listen to it?
What do I do with it then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
the law of supply and demand.
if you have something people want to purchase, wheter it's apples or techno they will buy it.
if people arent buying your music, then you have to ask yourself the questions. or as you say it doesn't fit into some pigeon hole you have to accept that it is never going to be a popular commercial venture. but the time and effort you have put into your music, from a karmic sense it has a value and cannot be given away for nothing; if you want to give your music away to people who do not even value your music as much as they will not pay for it in some kind of tokenistic way, then what is the point?
you may aswell make the music for yourself and be happy about it, unless your ego needs the recognition of others?
if you can't market it properly, then you need to work on that aspect of your enterprise.
i guess if you feel you dont need to sell your music, but give it free away, then do it. why should you think about other people and what your decision makes to them?? Do they ask you, if you agree with their decisions and their model? would better stick with what you think works best for you.
Old model of selling music doesnt work anymore, those who are smart find new ways, those who are scared of the future trying to keep the old, problem is the old is not working anymore,.
Greeed killed techno.
So- in a nutshell- music is only worth what people are prepared to pay for it - but if you can't sell it you can't give it away, because then you are only doing it to massage your own ego?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
maybe I do need to work on my marketing eh? jesus...
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodStar
its your music and your decision what to do with it.
if i make a sandwich and i want to give it to someone must i wait for others opinions on whether its ok to do it? fcuk that, its my sandwich and ill do whatever i please with it.
mmm.. sandwich... on second thoughts ill eat it myself :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
lol. a good artist is never recognised in his lifetime.
what if loads of people ares stealing it and no one is buying it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
though I do agree partly in the drive of what you say
the thing with techno is that it is transient in nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
I would say even more transient now, a good tune isn`t so important as a good tool that can be fitted in to 30 seconds-1 minute of a mix.
As mixing becomes easier with technology DJ`s are seeming to feel like they should be doing more and more, more tunes, more mixing etc, so spending ages making a tune that is looked at as a tool anyway, is a bit odd.
Is there place for art in techno?
It`s a funny old game techno, I`m starting to get very confused by it.
Why make music for anyone else apart form yourself? Sharing it is just a bonus. Gratitude is an even bigger bonus.
i think by and large people have integrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
it's not people stealing the music, this is a problem with marketing.
there needs to be a good market model. this is what is failing people at the moment.
if that has to be the acid techno or wonky section of Tesco Entertainment so be it.
i think alot of it is, simply that there isn't much demand, there is a much smaller market, than 5 or 10 years ago even.
techno is a small, niche market. unfortunately if you want your more experimental music to be bought, you have to be mainstream in some way.
do a duo with Alex Reid and Jordan that type of thing.
well of course i agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by clubsynthetic
a lot of music i do get is shared for nothing from people i know on here, force, scott grey etc on here or on msn etc, i'm sure other people have similar arrangements.
a lot of stuff is on youtube/myspace etc
if you want to share or 'give away for nothing' as is being argued here, i'm not sure that this will still meet what it is you are are wanting.
more bookings or publicity or customers or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
oh no, people are stealing the music, you only have to run a label and know about 0day to see this.
It`s not the whole of the issue, but it is certainly the issue.
I was on a forum today talking about the new massive attack album that isn`t even out yet, and everyone was talking about it as they had already got their bootlegs from 0day.
Marketing isn`t really the issue either, not exactly. I mean sure you can promote more etc, but the issue is more complex.
what is oday??Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
so the strategy to beat the thieves is to say well you can have it for free now anyway?
thieves being the target audience?
no
20 % selled
80% shared.
(torrents, rapidshare, soulseek)
Of course I am giving my music for free to that 80%.
fcuk giving your sandwiches away dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech
If you give your shitty butties away for free, people might be less inclined to pay money for my gourmet sandwiches.
This is very funny.. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
Erm- this was my original point - if it gets to the point where there isn't the demand for certain styles of music, aside from the occasional very limited pressing of the occasional thing, then why not share what music you have - not because you want to feel like the big dick or you expect a load of DJ gigs, but because maybe you think "I like this music I made, maybe someone else will too".Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkYoung
I very much doubt I'd ever give all of my music away for free as I have options to release stuff through labels, the trouble is, these labels want a very specific sound, which they can MARKET easily i.e. it sounds more like a lot of other stuff around.
I started my ### project as I was into stuff like Audion & James T Cotton, along with Relief records and so was making some slower stuff that was more like that, and the bonus was be that I still get to release the occasional 12 on vinyl - as this is the kind of stuff that labels think = sales
But I still make left-field techno stuff but no label seems to be interested in that kind of stuff unless it's a complete parody of itself (i.e. cliched "wonky" techno) - so what is wrong with me giving that stuff away for free just to get it out there? It's not that I feel the need to prove anything, just I feel that people might like that stuff (maybe I'm very wrong and actually they want to be listening to minimalbreakwonkbeat or whatever the latest trend is this week!)
People complain that everything sounds the same, but the moment you try something different, it becomes very difficult to get it out there - and then I'm told it's all about MARKETING? jesus
seems to me that the MARKETING is the very problem, why should we have to put music in convenient little boxes just to shift units? if you're gonna do that then why don't you just go and make some Donk or happy hardcore or whatever- that's far more likely to "shift units"
whatever happened to the love for music? And sharing that with others? why does it have to be all about money?
Anyway, I'm currently thinking that I like the idea of spreading my bets on this one- some freebies now and then, a paid for digital label, the ### stuff and very occasionally a limited to 50 copies coloured vinyl freaky techno ep with gatefold sleeve with some good art on there - give the collectors a piece to pick up...
I have to say that of all the people on the board I'm surprised to hear you say
"why does it always have to be about money" the most Mark.
I mean, Yeah I'm with you, it makes me feel the same too.
exasperated.
but still, come on, it IS about money
it's ALWAYS been about money.
even when it's FREE it's about the fact that it's not about the money
which means indirectly it IS about the money.
there is no way out.
It's really a question of just doing what you want right now isn't it, and sod everything else?
for most people the "marketing" side of selling music has become so intense that it's a no-go
there's not enough money for you to give up yer day job and slug it out on the internet with a load of corporate music companies who've got all the cash in the world
or bash heads with a load of 20 somethings who are doing music technology degrees and have all the time in the world
so sod it
give it away and get gigs instead?
and do a day job to feed the family, seems like the only way out right now.
anyone need a new website ?
ok can you put up your unreleased acid techno then please?Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
i stopped making sandwiches a long time ago jon. now i just do the presentation for other people who've already made them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Microdot
and if you cant sell your gourmet sandwiches then maybe your cooking style is out of fashion... :lol:
im hungry now.
I got a lot happier about life once I got a day job - and I found the standard of my music (IMO) got better too - Although I make a lot less than I used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
The marketing thing is depressing- seems like in many ways it ends up being more about that than the music itself- this is why I get to the point where I think "**** it- just give it away for free and bypass all that bullshit- I can make the money on the gigs".. I would sell mp3s from my website if I could sell more than 20 downloads - we did try before with the digital version of the kitty corner release- sold about 3 or 400 of the vinyl- but 20 downloads- easier to get on soulseek I guess..
Quote:
Originally Posted by crime
i've never understood why you can't all work together in some kind of cooperative to make it work somehow?
i mean on this site there are the most intelligent/creative people in the world.
a lot of people here are also capitalist corporate boys, who know how the system works.
quit whining and do something about it.
i figure u enjoy moaning.
yeah, maybe my tuna's a bit dated these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech