Has all this technology changed for the better?

Let me just point something out here. I'm from the old school. Don't kill me for being old at heart, I was from a day when technology was a word absolutely no-one understood. But when that whole technology word came up, I was like a kid on heat. Techno music embraced the future and took us into the next century. It was the most amazing thing ever. Wow, the future, going forward. What a prospect.

20 years on and I have to say things have changed like I could never have imagined. Some have been good, some have been bad. Recently I have to say, I'm really upset vinyl and the music industry has gone the way it has. Producers can't make a living and DJ performance just looks well, different. It's a hard thing to get your head around, it really is, when you're used to a certain way of living/working...

Mind you, I first adapted to it all cause I had to. Where as 20 years ago, I changed cause I wanted to. Recently, I've got back into that mentality of changing cause I wanted to. Ableton, CDJ's, **** what ppl think is the norm and just go forward.

I have to say, I love it. I'm feeling like a kid in a sweet shop. But there's one thing, and it's the only thing that's negative about this. How are producers going to make a living out of this? Well in 1985 I think you could have said the same thing. I think then, producers wondered how they would be able to break into the vinyl market, but they did. Right now, it's all about digital. Techno producers and all underground ppl have to get into the whole digital way of selling their music and it's gonna take time.

Mind you, it's a bloody great time for innovation. You just can't deny this...

I went got myself a cdj1000mk3 last week for the same reasons..its all going digital so i may as well get one now as there gonna be more or less the new technics and are already industry standard.
Im a big vinyl fan, so ive opted to get the cdj to play digital than say..ableton, as i like to beatmatch my mixes and have real hands on activity.

Curious..how well are current digital techno labels doing at the moment...what sort of figures??
Its just ive always thought..for every 1 that downloads a trk ,another 50 could get by copying??
At the moment im a bit reluctant to send stuff out to digital labels as i feel id be putting a lot of time and work into a trk and not getting much from it....
i dont mean financially...but at least with a record label,id get a vinyl with me name on.

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Originally Posted by MARK EG

I have to say, I love it. I'm feeling like a kid in a sweet shop. But there's one thing, and it's the only thing that's negative about this. How are producers going to make a living out of this? Well in 1985 I think you could have said the same thing. I think then, producers wondered how they would be able to break into the vinyl market, but they did. Right now, it's all about digital. Techno producers and all underground ppl have to get into the whole digital way of selling their music and it's gonna take time.

Mind you, it's a bloody great time for innovation. You just can't deny this...

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not sure i agree with you. is techno really more innovative now than in the past? i don't think it is, and i also think it has very little to do with technology itself, but everything to do with how long the music's been around for. few producers are really taking chances (though some are) with established formula, while the ever increasing number of labels out there are more and more focused on doing a particular thing rather than just putting out the best techno there is.

again, there are notable exceptions to this, but IMHO this is the overall state of techno and i don't think it's terribly positive.

hardware and software are parts of a toolkit. new stuff = new tools. new tools = potential new opportunities. but in the end, as davethedrummer has said in another post recently, nothing can make up for good writing or mask bad writing.

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

few producers are really taking chances (though some are) with established formula, while the ever increasing number of labels out there are more and more focused on doing a particular thing rather than just putting out the best techno there is.

.

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I would say this is a little bit of a circular situation, because yes I agree producers are less inclined to take chances and meddle with the format, but also, I would say DJ`s are just as unadventurous in their musical choice as a whole.
DJ X only plays this sub-niche
DJ Y only plays this sub-niche

So it`s hard to produce interesting techno for a majority of DJ`s who basically just like ramming the loops together on the decks.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I would say this is a little bit of a circular situation, because yes I agree producers are less inclined to take chances and meddle with the format, but also, I would say DJ`s are just as unadventurous in their musical choice as a whole.
DJ X only plays this sub-niche
DJ Y only plays this sub-niche

So it`s hard to produce interesting techno for a majority of DJ`s who basically just like ramming the loops together on the decks.

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@Slavik - what evidence have you got for that statement? I dont think thats the case AT ALL.

@Dirty Bass - Yes, people dont like meddling with the format, but why is that? Because there has been this attitude for so long "Get with the program or you wont get released" make some music that sounds like "this" or "this" and you might get a release. Mainly this was ever thus, journo's, reviewers and DJs like things in easily digestible format as it makes their life easier.

In particuar DJ's like playing a genre as they can learn to manipuate it and it makes playing the records easier to accomplish with some success.

But we have gone beyond that now. Or rather we are moving beyond that... there is now the opporunity to create on the fly and remix on the fly and THAT is the future for DJing. Not to say that all the old skills get abandoned, far from it. Its time DJ's learnt to add skills to their arsenal and get rid, once and for all of the "DJ's are not musicians" bullshit which has hung around them like a bad smell for far too long. (scuse the rhetoric :) )

The digital music market is still young and in terms of global market share this is what the IFPI had to say about 2004.

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Accelerated growth in digital sales

2004 was a landmark year for the growth of digital services. Over 180 legitimate music download services were launched globally in 2004. There are now well over 300 sites in total, with at least 200 in Europe.

Music catalogue available on the major services doubled in 2004 to over one million tracks, while subscriber figures now top 2.2 million. Sales of digital music players continue to increase, spurring growth in online music. The launch of 3G services by major operators has given a boost to the download music to mobile market.

In addition, sales of physical product over the internet are growing rapidly reaching 15% in Germany, 10% in the UK and 6% in the US. The internet was the fastest-growing retail channel for CD sales in 2004.

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The BPI had this to say

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New figures released today by UK record labels association the BPI show that the industry has remained ahead of the curve in digital, with 90% of all singles now sold through online and mobile platforms, while digital album sales are beginning to have a significant impact on the albums market.

With 60 million album sales in the first half of 2007, the UK market remains strong in a time of significant challenges for the global recorded music industry. The CD remains hugely popular with 96.5% of these albums sold as physical product.

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The first half of the year saw digital album sales grow rapidly. Album bundles with extra tracks, videos and sleeve artwork offer excellent value-for-money for consumers, whilst iTunes' variable pricing on album bundles and the "complete my album" facility have all helped to drive album sales. The iTunes Live Music Festival throughout July looks set to give a further boost to the digital albums market.

7Digital launched a consumer-facing store in May with high-quality album bundles and a "downloads locker", a key part of its offering.

Sales soared to more than 2.1 million units during the first half and passed the
100,000 weekly sales mark for the first time in June. This has offset 23% of the drop in CD album sales - a sign that digital sales are starting to have a real impact on the albums market.

But despite the increasing choice available to consumers from digital, many
consumers still prefer the convenience and value for money offered by compilation CDs, sales of which increased by 2.6% in the first six months of the year

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Dave the D was right, you cant mask good or bad writing. But then what on earth makes anyone think that digital releases will mask good writing? Did everyone suddenly all turn deaf? You know good music when you hear it - and like i said in answer to dave, the opporunities have increased TEN fold, dont be afraid of the rubbbish that will come out, because the opporunities which led to the pile of musical nonsense coming out will lead to WAY more roses growing in the pile of crap.

All this negativity is being directed towards the situation people believe themselves to be in - one in which they wont earn money from music.

Why?

Is it that we believe technology will make the ability to write music availble to everyone then everyone will write good music? or that they will be swamped by tracks? The music writing process is a long one, there are no shortcuts to it. What people are really afraid of, wether they know it or not is the gobalisation of the world music market. We will start to see music coming out or countries that were never part of what we have now. I firmly believe techno wil change, it always has done and always will do.

I was saying to a friend last night that i personally find it utterly ridiculous that the most negativity i have seen towards technology in music in recent weeks has come from people i know on this forum.... techno heads no less. whats going on? why are we refusing to accept the change? it goes against everything we stand for.

Sure digital labels have a responsibility to release good music, but they will also (like it or not) release within niche genres' because now they can - this is a good thing, this is where new music comes from. innovation, creation and opporunity. If we dont embrace this we will get left behind. simple as.

integration....

will i fuk give up me technics and vinyl addiction... ;)

are you not playing records anymore mark??????????
shit whos gonna throw records off stages and hit people in the head with them like you did at skelters tenth birthday to me! :)

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Originally Posted by FuK-NuT

integration....

will i fuk give up me technics and vinyl addiction... ;)

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And neither will I, im just as old school as you... (drops trousers and starts waving cock about)

But there are thousands and thousands of potential DJs' out there from third world and developing countries who will NEVER ever touch a piece of vinyl... and they wont care either.

I have kids in my music tech clases who are AFRAID of vinyl, nervous around it, dont even know what the needle does.... im not kidding, thats exactly how it is, and these are the ones who really do have the future in their hands.

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Originally Posted by dirty_bass

I would say this is a little bit of a circular situation, because yes I agree producers are less inclined to take chances and meddle with the format, but also, I would say DJ`s are just as unadventurous in their musical choice as a whole.
DJ X only plays this sub-niche
DJ Y only plays this sub-niche

So it`s hard to produce interesting techno for a majority of DJ`s who basically just like ramming the loops together on the decks.

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totally agree, dude.

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

@Slavik - what evidence have you got for that statement? I dont think thats the case AT ALL.

@Dirty Bass - Yes, people dont like meddling with the format, but why is that? Because there has been this attitude for so long "Get with the program or you wont get released" make some music that sounds like "this" or "this" and you might get a release. Mainly this was ever thus, journo's, reviewers and DJs like things in easily digestible format as it makes their life easier.

In particuar DJ's like playing a genre as they can learn to manipuate it and it makes playing the records easier to accomplish with some success.

But we have gone beyond that now. Or rather we are moving beyond that... there is now the opporunity to create on the fly and remix on the fly and THAT is the future for DJing. Not to say that all the old skills get abandoned, far from it. Its time DJ's learnt to add skills to their arsenal and get rid, once and for all of the "DJ's are not musicians" bullshit which has hung around them like a bad smell for far too long. (scuse the rhetoric :) )

The digital music market is still young and in terms of global market share this is what the IFPI had to say about 2004.



The BPI had this to say





Dave the D was right, you cant mask good or bad writing. But then what on earth makes anyone think that digital releases will mask good writing? Did everyone suddenly all turn deaf? You know good music when you hear it - and like i said in answer to dave, the opporunities have increased TEN fold, dont be afraid of the rubbbish that will come out, because the opporunities which led to the pile of musical nonsense coming out will lead to WAY more roses growing in the pile of crap.

All this negativity is being directed towards the situation people believe themselves to be in - one in which they wont earn money from music.

Why?

Is it that we believe technology will make the ability to write music availble to everyone then everyone will write good music? or that they will be swamped by tracks? The music writing process is a long one, there are no shortcuts to it. What people are really afraid of, wether they know it or not is the gobalisation of the world music market. We will start to see music coming out or countries that were never part of what we have now. I firmly believe techno wil change, it always has done and always will do.

I was saying to a friend last night that i personally find it utterly ridiculous that the most negativity i have seen towards technology in music in recent weeks has come from people i know on this forum.... techno heads no less. whats going on? why are we refusing to accept the change? it goes against everything we stand for.

Sure digital labels have a responsibility to release good music, but they will also (like it or not) release within niche genres' because now they can - this is a good thing, this is where new music comes from. innovation, creation and opporunity. If we dont embrace this we will get left behind. simple as.

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don't think you quite got my point, dude. as i said earlier, and i think dirtybass would agree, the problem with techno today has f*ck-all to do with technology. technology SHOULD create new oppportunities. but, in the end, opportunities are taken by people. techno, to me, has a people problem right now, and has had for years. not enough new people listening to the music, too many overspecialized producer, dj and label people. both supply and demand, as i see it based on years of listening to techno, show less and less stress on originality and song-ness and more and more on categorizability and track-ness. so techno, IMO, has a writing, releasing and performing problem. it would have this problem regardless of ableton or mp3s.

as for new technology, of course we should embrace it. but we should do so to bring on more quality, daring music. stuff that sounds different, memorable rather than safe.

*EDIT* i'm talking very generally ^^ and don't want to be categorical. i should add that there are indeed GREAT, original producers, labels, djs etc still out there. just not as many as i'd like and, IMO, not as high a percentage as there were...

I believe that all this new technology can only be a good thing...

It should be embraced, especially by those of us who are purveyors of Techno as a musical genre...

For me, from the creative point of view, the whole idea of the word is the ethos that we are using the best most up to date musical tools that we have ever had the good fortune to get our hands on...

We can let loose our creative abilities in such a way that has never been equalled - a musical paint pallet that has a million colours to blend, shape and texture...:)

In reference to Dave the Drummers' post in the acid forum, surely the fact that we have all these highly sophisticated musical tools at our disposal should generate enthusiasm that can be focused on our music making...

This much needed energy and excitement is what is required when marching into the studio thinking, 'I'm going to try something new today!!'...:psy:

That creative energy just flows then and thats when the real gems are born...

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

don't think you quite got my point, dude. as i said earlier, and i think dirtybass would agree, the problem with techno today has f*ck-all to do with technology. technology SHOULD create new oppportunities. but, in the end, opportunities are taken by people. techno, to me, has a people problem right now, and has had for years. not enough new people listening to the music, too many overspecialized producer, dj and label people. both supply and demand, as i see it based on years of listening to techno, show less and less stress on originality and song-ness and more and more on categorizability and track-ness. so techno, IMO, has a writing, releasing and performing problem. it would have this problem regardless of ableton or mp3s.

as for new technology, of course we should embrace it. but we should do so to bring on more quality, daring music. stuff that sounds different, memorable rather than safe.

*EDIT* i'm talking very generally ^^ and don't want to be categorical. i should add that there are indeed GREAT, original producers, labels, djs etc still out there. just not as many as i'd like and, IMO, not as high a percentage as there were...

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O.k i get your point, but i still think you need to be more specific, who has made this problem worse? Is it because inward thinking producers in a specific country, genre or label? i'd be very hard to pin it down to any one of these.

"Not enough new people listening to the music" but yet there is an appetite for electronic sounds, even in the pop world. The potentia audience is there, but promoters need to be figuring out how to get them into the clubs and into the music again.

Genre specialism and club nights which concentrated solely on one type of music (I agree) have been around for far too long. And have only served to bore me to tears in the main.

We actualy agree on a lot of points, but you did say that techno is not as innovative as it was in the past, this i have to take issue with - mainly for positive reasons, somewhere out in the world there are new and innovative ideas waiting to appear, and right now is THE best time there has been for techno. Now is the time for labels to appear that take opportunities they couldnt before - releasing al that fantastic music thats out there because the risk factor is low. ITs just right now its early days and we are still seeing attitudes changing slowly.

personaly im finding the whole time we are in REALLY exciting! i dont think there has been a more exciting time for techno EVER.

People are always the biggest resource in any music scene and i think a break from the past would be VERY healthy for techno right now, and a re-examination of what techno means is necessary.

My definition of techno goes thus:

Electronic music is all techno, there are no boundaries and no internal definitions - DJS should be abe to play all of it within a set without feeling like they are not being cohesive. Producers need to be able to explore their creativity without being stifled by formulae.

Digital music labels and technology allow for that experimentation, the question is - who is going to take the opporunity? The old school or the new school? Abnd a greater question is - will those with slow moving attitudes be able to keep with the changes and welcome them with open arms?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

My definition of techno goes thus:

Electronic music is all techno, there are no boundaries and no internal definitions - DJS should be abe to play all of it within a set without feeling like they are not being cohesive. Producers need to be able to explore their creativity without being stifled by formulae.

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the def ^^ is exactly what i want to see more of. and i hope to see more labels come out that don't just release a very specific sound, but just great music.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlavikSvensk

the def ^^ is exactly what i want to see more of. and i hope to see more labels come out that don't just release a very specific sound, but just great music.

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Thats what ive been hoping to do...! ;)

well new technology dosn't bother me much. I still love vinyl, and i think there will always be a market for it.

It's all a bit too much "wow! check out the production on this" and lack of actual track idea IMO.

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Originally Posted by Si the Sigh

It's all a bit too much "wow! check out the production on this" and lack of actual track idea IMO.

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There is nothing wrong with idea/concept driven music at all, some of the best tracks i ever heard were not all that well produced. In fact every single studio in the world strives for that, otherwise say three hail mary's and pass the 4 track.

but the ones that REALLY stood out were those that had all the elements, production, musicianship and ideas.

I think it's really dangerous territory to dismiss the format music comes in or attack the technology that produced it.

Like i said before, the opporunities afforded to musicians are greater now than they ever have been, but this in turn brings greater challenges - both in terms of how musicians interface with the industry they (perhaps) want a part in, and how they retain an identity in a sea of other faces.

Production values?
without good production you dont have a cat in hells chance to get a job in a pro-end studio....In fact every single studio in the world strives for that, otherwise say three hail mary's and pass the 4 track.

Recently the beatles engineer decided to get together with a lot of well known artists and, using a 4 track, re-record some of the beatles tracks... what they came up with sounded something like the beatles, and forced them to use ideas rather than technology.

So what Si says (no pun intended) carries weight, but in this age of technology i prefer to have a desk and a sequencer rather than a 4 track.

i think it's worth reiterating that the digital label medium allows for more experimentation, and less rigidity in genre, simply because you do not have the MASSIVE overhead that vinyl production brings.

if i am gonna put the money into vinyl, the first question i am gonna ask myself is: is there a market and will djs pick this up.

the first question i am gonna ask with a digital label is: is it good?

sure there is a lot of stuff out there and a flooded market, so those niches do have a purpose, but the digital medium (IMO) allows for a lot less sweating and a whole lot more opening of the mind.

that's my .03.

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Originally Posted by djshiva

i think it's worth reiterating that the digital label medium allows for more experimentation, and less rigidity in genre, simply because you do not have the MASSIVE overhead that vinyl production brings.

if i am gonna put the money into vinyl, the first question i am gonna ask myself is: is there a market and will djs pick this up.

the first question i am gonna ask with a digital label is: is it good?

sure there is a lot of stuff out there and a flooded market, so those niches do have a purpose, but the digital medium (IMO) allows for a lot less sweating and a whole lot more opening of the mind.

that's my .03.

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+1

I was rambling in the Acid forum about dwindling awareness of what's come before.

What I mean is, I don't think anyone really plays classic tracks out anymore, and those tracks are classics for a reason. If no one plays them, no one hears them, and no one uses them for inspiration.

Every art form known to man has some simple rules, and one is: Don't go for complexity until you've mastered the basics. So people get swamped with the digital possibilities and don't think to go back to basics, back to the amazing tracks done in the 90s.

Technology and the way it affects royalty payments.. part of a convo about Apple's manouverings with iTunes licensing. It has relevance here as the second half of the article is about the payments made to record companies for music playing devices.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07...ple_universal/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dodgyedgy

personaly im finding the whole time we are in REALLY exciting! i dont think there has been a more exciting time for techno EVER.

People are always the biggest resource in any music scene and i think a break from the past would be VERY healthy for techno right now, and a re-examination of what techno means is necessary.

My definition of techno goes thus:

Electronic music is all techno, there are no boundaries and no internal definitions - DJS should be abe to play all of it within a set without feeling like they are not being cohesive. Producers need to be able to explore their creativity without being stifled by formulae.

Digital music labels and technology allow for that experimentation, the question is - who is going to take the opporunity? The old school or the new school? Abnd a greater question is - will those with slow moving attitudes be able to keep with the changes and welcome them with open arms?

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I personally feel this way too...

All these points are bang on and yes, who will allow themselves to embrace what essentially has to be a new era...:ruquestion:

jesus guyz

you guys are well into this thread i personaly since setting up a digital label am only a cd dj i have gone of vinyl big time you do have to move with the times imo i know its not a big earner producing digital but in a way were yrs in front even tho the capital is low

as for the coments on techno being in the state it is i personaly think it is miles in front of other sceens for example i go some were like global i av mates who like drum and bass mates who like hard house some what like hard style you go in these areanas and there playin stuff what they have been playin for like the past five years and im talkin big names

to me banging floorfiller anthems on is not very creative at all creative to me is playing stuff ppl have never heard new stuff , stuff they may never hear again iv been there thinkin i need this tune and never been able to find it thats the buz the dj gets ( iv got this tune and no 1 else has) thats creativity your either a dj who knows how to rock a dance floor or not simple as ...

now the ableton business if i wasnt writing on a sequencer iv been using yrs id be on it all the time i go on it a hour and need to go back on what i was using before b cos of all the time it takes picking stuff up etc.i wish i had 100 hrs in a day but i wanna go to that new level abelton is the dogs ppl try it if u havent

i dont claim to be no techno expert but i ****in love it big time you lot are into it and probably know well more than i do but come on lets all enjoy it and go wiv the flow wether it is live cdjs or vinyl

and remember dont eat codliver oil there is nothin mega about 3


any one wanna chat


charley_upanote@hotmail.com

DAVE(KK)

Has it changed for the better?

Depends on your positioning really.

If 20 years on we were still all making tracks exclusively using 303s and 909s the sound would get tired. People would get bored and the crowds and fans would dwindle.

Dance music has always attracted a young crowd, and has a burden of innovation attached to it. If you want to fill the clubs with pretty 20 somethings you need to be doing something new, trendy, cutting edge etc. Techno seperates itself from dance pop by trying to do something new - cutting a trail that mainstream music follows. Its music that belongs in clubs, that drives people to dance. It has a role to play.

I don't think techno is ever going to be a genre thats fixed in one particular sound. I think it represents an attitude more than an objective musical categorisation. Folk music will be probably be identifiable as folk music in 100 years, as it was 100 years previous. Techno 10 years back, loopy aggressive chuga-chuga doesn't have that much in common with a lot of the more melodic, slower stipped down stuff being made today.

But to me its innovation driving change - with technology sometimes prompting innovation.

Worth bearing in mind that the greatest musical leaps of faith were all done
still using classical instruments. Music technology barely moved an inch to accommodate blues, jazz or rock and roll.

People these days get too caught up in instrument worship and forget that they're just tools. Its the artists who change the music.

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Originally Posted by Jay Pace

If 20 years on we were still all making tracks exclusively using 303s and 909s the sound would get tired. People would get bored and the crowds and fans would dwindle.

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Really?

The guitar / bass / drums combo has been around for for the best part of a century and there are still people pushing boundaries. Rock music may not be your cup of tea, but there is loads of great stuff about.

The impact of your ideas far surpasses the impact of your technology. At the end of the day it's just an enabler. Computers will get faster, technology will get "better", and along with it the scope of what you do will broaden exponentially. But someone with talent will still coax something belting out of ReBirth given a few hours and the right inspiration.

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Originally Posted by TechMouse

Really?

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Yes. The role techno plays requires that it changes and progresses. Use of technology is intrinsic to the sound, and makes techno what it is.

If technology froze and all techno used the same sounds forever it wouldn't really be techno anymore.

Well, not to me at any rate.

look at hardcore

i not herd a new toon come out for over 10 yrs i dont like it or nothing but i go out on a thurs nite were i live and theres all these kiddie boppin about to these heart of gold bollox lovin it wtf

if techno stayed the same the new generation will like it its the clubbers who get bored more than the creators

ppl will move on and nothing stays the same!!!!

DAVE(KK)