Quote:
Originally Posted by nekro
Sure but we're not saying any specific event triggered the dance movement, more a backdrop of economic and social conditions which were a catalyst.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nekro
Sure but we're not saying any specific event triggered the dance movement, more a backdrop of economic and social conditions which were a catalyst.
such as? i think it was just a continuation of acid music into another sub-genre. you make the music sound as though it's really politicised when it isn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
The music wasnt politicised and nor was the scene but lets take a look shall we.
The second world war was the end of the empire and the end of the victorian social order. The post war industialisation and wider availability of goods created the first mass consumer society. Women during the war had been allowed to take the same jobs as men in the fields and factories and demanded that remained. During the 50's the generation which had sacrificed so much were demanding much more and weren't going to let the morality of the older generation dictate. This gave rise to the rebellion of the James Dean era and to a xcertain extent rock and roll and elvis etc.. leaping forward we have the american civil rights movement and vietnam which brought rise to the hippy mobement and its subsequent offshoots of psychedelia which gradually infected the UK.
We had an actual revolution followed by a cultrual and moral revolution and by the time the post war socialist state was begninning to cripple industry we had yet another social revlotion which brought rise to the Pistols and Punk.
Spot the pattern? Every time there is a rejection of the cultural and political status quo there is a new movement within music and youth culture.
The Thatcherite reforms were no less of an economic and social revolution. The shift from stagnant statism to free flowing individualism and some say selfishness. (see privatisation)
The opponents of which, or at least thatcherism, were always the reclaim the streets/animal right/SWP far lefty types. They were always inextricably linked to the squat "scene" and I've yet to meet an acid house DJ of the era who didnt have links with one or other organisation who were routinely waving placards or in running battles with the rozzers.
The first ravers would have been ex punks, and hippies of the Levellers/NMA pursuasion and anarchy types.
The arrival of ecstasy and mass availability of electronic gear was coincidental but tunes and pills do not a scene make. DJ's had to draw on audiences and where better to find them than at protest squats etc.
To say that the birth of rave was entirely apolitical and just a random mutation of genres based on technological advances doesnt sit well for me. That kind of thing happens all the time. its happend a dozen times since the birth of acid house.
What makes it a movement with political undertones is in evidence by the ensuing moral panics and media hype.
The great nichtomorph of the 90's.
In this case the catalyst was a drug but that drug appearing at any other time since, and the result would have looked entirely different if it happened at all.
Ideas only survive if they have a sea to swim in and such conditions only tend to be apparent in times of economic or social uncertainty.
I think ;uch of this is true. But , some would say sadly, there is another major fator in at least two of the most creative of these cultural revolutions - huge quantities of freely available L.S.D. - something I have no interest in but its influence on music is undeniable.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
so acid techno was born because of dissillusionment with the thatcher era? :/
i really don't think that many of the artists, people involved in organising the squat parties in London or the 'ravers' were motivated by these reasons, some maybe, but the majority not. i was there week in week out at underground sounds, immersion, virus, bedlam, restless natives etc.etc. and this is not how i remember the scene being.
The point being that the east end london activist scene was very much vibrant because of the thatcherite reforms. While they themselves maynot have been responsible for the scene as we know it, it was almost certainly the sea through which the idea initially swam.
Just thinking. Turning it on its head, what notable sea changes in music have occured in times of economic prosperity and stability?
The blues were born of slavery, psychedelia was born of the hippie movement during a social revlolution, why is it so implausible that rave was a counter reaction to to the birth of modern consumer captialism as we know it?
Disco ? Its the only one I could think of that didnt fit your hypothesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_DiscontentQuote:
Originally Posted by Gus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
Hardly a quiet decade of peace and stability. Although the origins of disco and or any social movement associated with it is outside my area of interest.
Probably the collective hangover of the hippie movement.
Can I phone a friend?
Then again theres usually some heavy stuff going on in the world so you can always find something that was going on. I really dont think Disco was inspired by any sort of bad times though. However disco is mostly shite so maybe you could have a point - decent music is inspired by hardtimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
What's with all the negativity?
Jesus, no wonder the scene is in decline if everyone's so negative. I mean it's hardly going to get any better if all people are going to do is whinge and wish it was like it used to be, it won't be, the honeymoon period is over, deal with it and get on with having a good time FFS.
THE one thing i'm looking forward to the most is coming back to London and seeing my favourite DJ's banging out the acid whilst i'm busting some moves!
I think the guys have consistently done an outstanding job and we should be supporting them and the scene as much as we can, not kicking them/it while it's down and whinging as if it's all a load of bollocks. NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS FFS!!!
Peace out, party on, lets ****in 'ave it!!!
Interesting stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Technologic
I don't come on the acid forum too often these days mainly because the style is not as fresh as it was and I'm just not so crazy about 303's as i was a few years ago.
sorry about that.
but i still come and check stuff out and see what everyones up to
and there have been some great tracks kicking about here recently too.
i think saying these negative things about the scene just alienates people who are getting into it for the first time
and upsets some of the other guys who are trying hard to make good new stuff
it really disses all their hard work to say that it's all gone hard dance etc etc ...
i mean what the **** is that all about?
and I do take it a bit personally too , I can't help it.
but yeah
being negative will just not work.
you have to accept that it is not 1997 any more and look forward
and accept that while it may have been fun getting trashed and playing records for 3 days in a warehouse in hackney
you can't live that lifestyle forever (unless you want to die at 45 from a heart attack)
and once you break out of that mode , you see other forms of music and other ideas that are just as valid and exciting.
As for the political thing , I think that's become a bit overblown
it is true in a sense that acid techno had a political ethos, but the records were made for the sake of the music first and foremost.
the parties picked up around that i think , plus the end of the free traveller movement and the poll tax riots etc etc .....it was certainly inspiring
and it came out in the music for sure and pulled people together.
but it's not fair to say "what happened to these guys ?" or anything like that
because for me politics is still there , and i'm still into underground music.
and anyway ,what the hell has my life or political view got to do with you?
I think a vast majority of all techno is still "**** you" music
mainly because the musical ideas it deals with are abstract and go against the grain of commercial music.
and it needs a bit of a leap of faith to understand.
In a way shouting "**** you" over a track can be seen as being a bit naive too
and as i got older that started to ring a few alarm bells for me.
like "what kind of message are we actually trying to achieve here?"
so thats my say
I had to write something you understand
and I'm sure there'll be disagreements, no problem.
but let's try to pull together on this one
and maybe open that door to the future of the sound together
not wedge it so firmly shut that we lose it all forever.
that is the true crime.
Well, my post was strictly to get some idea of what's happening in the underground scene. I had the fortune to attend a few London underground parties in the early 2000s when the sound was dark as ****, and even then something felt... off. I was pilled up like everyone, but that did not hide the reality of shady-looking people snorting stuff in the dark corners. So naturally I'm very curious what form the parties have taken now that acid has withered, MP3s are dominating, etc.. And I was also curious about the political angle because there seems to be so much globally that should have people angry and ready to make hard dance music. Instead, we get a never ending sea of "minimal" tunes to make us choochoo around the dancefloor and ponder the make of our cars.
Re: your (and the other dons) output, I stopped expecting you to churn out 303 tracks ages ago. I think an artist's enthusiasm for their music can be heard quite easily in the tunes, so it's best to move on when you've lost that spark for a given sound. What surprises me is that there has been no real hotbed of acid techno since you guys did it from the mid-90s to the early-00s. I fully expected that other British producers would have stepped in and become part of your crew, maybe taken up the reigns. But perhaps acid techno really is dead for the time being, and there aren't any people willing to invest on the level you all did.
I really want to take a crack at producing some tracks, as I have a pretty clear idea of a different direction I could take, but I lack the resources right now. Maybe part of the new acid techno philosophy would be the exploitation of software production in order to get back to that DIY mindset. Because I certainly cannot afford vintage synths right now. Our economy is ****ed, so pricey gear is bottom of the list.
I guess you all set the bar so high that it has made it difficult for others to carry on. Definitely a unique period in dance music that you all led.
writing this knackered so excuse the rambling, lack of punctuation etc but my tuppenceworth based on 10 yearsworth of squatpartying/djing etc is, in no particular order that;
hackney has less places to do the parties now what with the land being used for olympics/yuppie flat building..
..the crackheads of a few years sgo with their mugging etc took their toll on the scene, put lots of people off..
..the parties maybe due to their cheapness/sheer ****ing difference always had a lot of energy from immigrants..the italian squatter characters that helped fuel the parties in the late 90s seem less around these days..speaking to some italian mates they say that coming to london for a few years of madness is less a rite of passage these days..when the government opened up visas to latinamericans in early 2000s there was an upsurge in brazilianfuelled psytrance squatparties..now the uk government have enough newly qualified eu citizens from the east to do their lowpaid blackmarket jobs they stopped letting in so many brazilians..so the psy parties went quiet again..the new eu crews from the east eg poland are fuelling parties now but maybe more in a club environment for whatever reason..
..police are using terror laws that they couldnt use before to stop parties..
..acid techno was never going to remain at the same popularity..maybe like other genres such as dnb it will regroup/reinvent and come back with a vengeance..but for now the younger ones seem to be more into breakcore hardtek etc..using their own laptops to make stuff than watch a dj spin vinyl..which is what is still the norm at squatparties is..
..er yeah and crews just have moved on/got kids/had enough..
..definitely agree with the link between strong economy and weak alternative culture and viceversa also..think this is a big factor..
..oh yeah and k, not exactly condusive to people networking/talking/having a laugh/getting off their arses and doing anything which is what parties fuelled by uppers are more likely to be..
..sometimes when djing, looking up and seeing a load of dribbling zombies can be really dispiriting..
..and i think people spouting shite on internet forums probably (not this one i hasten to add)puts off interested but uninformed potential squatparty people "yeah i got mugged at a party..all i took was 3 lines of k in 5 minutes and i woke up without my money, phone etc and a bruise on my head..cant have been me falling down oh no" or "yeah so and so got stabbed and shot, i dont know who or when or where but i heard it did definitely happen" or "yeah they are well dodgy..well the ones i used to go to years ago were..i dont know about now but i will still spout off as if i went last weekend" etc..
..dont know enough about the politics fuelling it, coincidence playing a part or not etc but the coming together of characters like henry, chris, lawrie gizelle etc was something that doesnt happen very often..to follow that lot will probably happen but not straightaway..like expecting england to produce a paul gascoigne every summer..in my opinion like..zzz goodnight all
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_psychologist
agree with the last para definitely..but there are producers around who will take up the reigns as you say..paul cortex, 3phaze generator off the top of my head..it is all cyclical i reckon..imo that keeps it fresh, maybe acid techno as we knew it is dead yes but there will always be acid music..although when there were distributor problems with the uk acid i did look abroad but found nothing but boingboing cliche squelchysquelchy stuff..not the dirty london stuff..so yes lets have a sabbatical, move on and producers take your time and mature the london acid sound..its worth waiting for imo..
for those that are genuinely interested in what the london 'scene' is like these days then check out this weekends party, should be quite a few sound systems there since it's a bank holiday
my 2 cents
boredom + unstable tempwork + depression(optional) = megga creativity aka doing things for yourself.... creative evolution.
stable comfortable job = stable overweight comfortable mediocrity, consuming and expecting others to throw the good parties. Aka all fun and no tough.
I think you'll find that Disco grew out of the gay rights scene - the discoteque was the only social outlet for gays at the time. So in that sense, disco was a form of social protest. Without it, it's unlikely that much of today's dance music would even exist.
Hmmm...my last post was supposed to be in reply to one on page 3. I didn't realise we were up to page 4. Never mind....
One thing I will say though - acid techno is, by its very nature, limited in scope. What worked back in 1996 still works today. New tunes will always be compared to the classics and probably suffer as a result. In order to survive, the music must evolve - not so as to sound like anything else, but to remain in a sector all its own, Does that make sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by People_Mover
Sounds about right. Was thinking earlier today that my explanation of disco was vague and implausible but that probably has it.
@DTD...
You say that techno is essentially fck you music but do you find that its harder to find an expression of "fck you" in a more socially liberal society since there are very few moral or musical taboos anymore?
I would have thought that very little in the dance world could be interpretted as rebellious given that mainstream media has so readily stolen and absorbed most underground music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
^^Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
Well what exactly does go against the grain of commercial music these days since just about every concept from the underground has been absorbed?
Most forms of techno are in your face on a daily basis in adverts and trailers.
Which makes most techno producers worth their salt say, fck you, i'm gonna try and make something different, using sound elements in other ways, experimentation, rather than same old same old.
Its only a lack of imagination/talentwhen it comes to the paint by numbers stuff.
Its only really techno and the more cutting edge breakcore stuff that still tries to push the boundries.
Other genres tend to find a winning formular and stick with it.
(hard) house/dance/nrg/trance etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
Come up with new concepts then.
Thats just it though, its not just the paint by numbers underground stuff in the mainstream. Seen carphone warehouse ad and the specsavers one. Oh and that Hyundai ad. The underground IS mainstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by force
strong words there.Quote:
Its only really techno and the more cutting edge breakcore stuff that still tries to push the boundries.
Yeah, is it really that bad though?Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
I remember D&B's reputation dwindling because of the chart success of Champion and Original Nutter, but it's still going pretty strong and it's not like we're likely to hear the latest hardcore techno track in the charts now is it?
It has all gone rather commercial though hasn't it?
Lab 4 doing toothepaste ads (some time ago now i know), the fashion channel using the posey techno as a soundtrack thanks to Miss Kitten and what with the media tools available to us today, internet, youtube, myspace etc, no wonder it's all become so commercialised and the listeners spectrum has been broadened to what they wouldn't normally hear because it was all so underground.
Like i say though, is it really a bad thing that these neiche genres are actually getting some coverage?
And if so, why?
Do people really turn their nose up at what may well be actually quite decent tunes just because they're on TV?
Why so?
If you ask me, at the end of the day good music is good music, if it's on TV or not.
Im still trying to accept its not 1993 anymore !Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
Anyway I know what you mean about the lifestyle. I was talking to this girl about it, she hates techno, and she was saying - youve stopped taking the drugs now stop listening to the music. I was trying to explain to her its not just about the drugs but she wasnt having any of it. I do love techno but I am not a druggie anymore and to be like that for life is not my thing, however the music IS designed to illicit a certain response whilst people are on drugs, yet I still love it. What a dilema. I guess maybe once a year in a field is not going to kill me.
Im still trying to accept its not 1993 anymore !Quote:
Originally Posted by davethedrummer
Anyway I know what you mean about the lifestyle. I was talking to this girl about it, she hates techno, and she was saying - youve stopped taking the drugs now stop listening to the music. I was trying to explain to her its not just about the drugs but she wasnt having any of it. I do love techno but I am not a druggie anymore and to be like that for life is not my thing, however the truth is , side from political matters, the music IS designed to illicit a certain response whilst people are on drugs, yet I still love it. What a dilema. I guess maybe once a year in a field is not going to kill me.
i think we all (well most of us anyway) got cained a lot to acid techno.. but i think those memories of what it can do are the reason why its so special, it still does those things to me sober because my brain is programmed to react a certain way to it. maybe..
People always say - oh Acid techno that was the nineties man, thats over - then they go and put a jungle cd on ! or hip hop which preceded acid techno by ten years. Its just another genre that will always exist now, like trad jazz or skiffle.
from what i heard of acid techno around these forums is kick + quantised snare on every second kick + quantised hihats + looped bassline + 303 with filter going up and down
thats about it. 0 groove, 0 futurism, 0 punk, 0 funk. all 140-150bpm.
acid techno should be 30-200 bpm, experiments, different rythms, shuffled, delayed with mad effects and otherworldly feeling, like all techno. no limits i experimenting, heavy punk or heavy funk or heavy futurism. thats what made it big (i mean all techno), and now that its gone - ofcourse nobody will like it. u gotta have in mind that the audience, the people who u need to fill the club, doesnt want to listen to music just cause its got a big kick and a 303. they wanna hear MUSIC and the kick and the 303 can be a part of the music. i hope im making sense
just listen to the oldschool techno. mescalinum united - we have arrived, x-101 x-102, old millses, early prodigy records etc and ull know what i mean
One of the things i always liked about acid techno was the directness and lack of pretention in the music - that (along with the political) is a big part of what makes it the punk rock of techno IMO. For me its much more focused on wrecking a dance floor than large scale experimentation and pushing the limits of musical boundaries - when i feel like listening to something that does that i go elsewhere in my collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lag
I don't think this is the reason that acid tec is not as listened to as it used to be - even if something stands still it can still be fresh to someone who hasn't heard it before. When shopping online for tunes there seems to be a glut of hard house/hardstyle stuff none of which i've heard so far that offers anything that wasn't on the table years ago either - yet theres tons of it and quality acid is much, much more difficult to find.
What I like about acid techno is its completely unpretentious.
That and the unbelievably positive energy that liberated you from the misery and mundanity of everyday existance and dissolved the illusion that is the world the "system" has created for us. In the end though the druggie lifestyle just becomes a different sort of prison. Acid techno was never just about drugs for me.
i don't agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by AcidTrash
what goes against the grain is putting on an avin't party in a field or a warehouse.
i think its important to get younger poeple into techno for it to grow again, but it's hard. they seem to have the attention span of a nat these days, they seem to go where ever its trendy tobe what every the music.
acid techno will never be absorbed into the main stream!!!
LSD will never be absorbed into the mainstream, so if you make music on acid and dance around in a field or some other illegal place chances are its going to annoy mainstream society. Today however acid is hard to come by and we live in a complete nanny state - the very antithesis of the rugged wilderness which is the essential habitat for acid techno to thrive. Besides I wouldnt want to take it again anyway - I dont want to go mad.
Acid techno cannot defeat the state because at the end of the day its made by a bunch of hippies/punks/travellers on drugs whereas the state is armed to the teeth and protected by riot shields etc This makes a mockery of Acid technos pretensions to be able effect change politically and has resulted in the impotent druggy mess we see today. Sure you can influence peoples attitudes with music but ....
Ill tell you what - I HATE that tune "one night in Hackney" as far as Im concerned that is when the "system" won and acid techno sunk as far down as it could get and became just about getting mashed.
Ill tell you one thing good acid techno does - it makes you feel free.
Yeah, but for all the missteps and cheezy tunes, the dons produced 10x as many banging tracks. Anyone else here put out a fraction as many tracks as the Chris/Henry/Lawrie/Guy/DDR combo of the 90s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
It seems like hedonistic dance music is kind of dead now, ie Hardcore, "Psy" Trance, UK Hard House (at least where I live), and Acid Techno. I'm not sure why Minimal has become so embedded in the world party scene, and it shows a change in tastes. I think people are more into feeling cool now than just losing it to music all night long.
Shit, even the DJs seem to be in it just to be seen. I have spoken to several lately who didn't even know what tunes they were playing. It's just a download/play it/delete it mentality now. I spoke to one idiot who said he "never plays the same track twice", and he is a local fixture who plays out all the time at higher profile parties. There's no sense of history and preservation of the music and attached culture.
People talk about how Acid comes and goes, but I'm really concerned that overt Acid is done. If someone can meld it with Minimal, it'll deffo work. But who can imagine a dancefloor pulsing to "**** Goa" these days? The golden age is a snapshot of everything that was happening at that time, as well as the enthusiasm of the producers. It can't just be conjured up at will.
I should add that the Canadian artist MUX is one of the only acts I've heard in the past few years that seemed to capture the same spirit. Hardware fetishist does ravey acid techno with weird samples and funky programming. I wonder what he's doing these days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_psychologist
Oh yes they made some brilliant records. They learnt to work as a team.
what he says ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Lag
uk acid techno is dead because the tracks are way too formulaic and people are bored of listening to that style now
this thread rocks...
im moving to the big smoke soon...this has actually gave me an insight and understanding of things im looking to get in too ;)
i cant be arsed with this thread anymore............ same old same old.........whats the point in going round and round bush?
get out there and do it !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nihilist
Do what ?
Im not - im bored of R and BQuote:
Originally Posted by nekro
not really - we've been discussing more than just "i like it / i don't like it". just don't read the thread if you don't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nihilist
i'm quite interested in the social factors that have buried party dance music under a pile of plinks and plonks.
Yeah, what's interesting is that some of the Minimal/Tech House tunes coming out are as hard and funky as classic Acid tracks. Boys Noize stuff, Trentemoller, Soulwax, and so forth. Huge builds, hard kicks, and a lot of glitched-out squelches (even acid sometimes). I really think that people will still lose it to hard music, but I think it does need to be more... complex? I don't know what the word is. I'm confident that there are new frontiers for "acid" music that have yet to be explored. Remember, we used to call Cluster and the like "Acid Techno". It's more about a vibe than a specific piece of hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lag