wheres the fat basslines gone

[eyeswithoutaface]

i get your point mate, and i agree on some things, but to be honest it's the kind of opinion that, to me, just seems a little narrow minded. Dont take that in the sense of saying your not open to new things which is the main meaning, example, you dont think Booka Shade is dancefloor techno. Mate, seriously, Booka Shade is like going to a full on gig by your favourite band, it's dancefloor techno on a whole other level, detracting from the head's down, stomp till u drop side of things, which i still love of course, but this is something else. It's the way i personally think the scene needs to move into alot, lot more.

The sheer effort that goes into putting on shows like Booka do brings a whole new feeling and sense of energy to a gig, even if they are slotted in between 2 pretty regular, run of the mills (boom boom!) dj's playing the usual looped techno. Just seeing an instrument being played to create techno gets my juices going, as im sure it does your's having been in bands yourself, and i just think thats the direction alot of people could consider definately.

and seriously, u drop "little fluffy clouds" mid set and watch those who get it just fall at your feet mate. i've played the strangest tracks midset at times, all for my personal gratification of course, and expected a hail of bottles but i think on the whole, certainly over the past 2, 3 years, people are actually seeking out that sense of never knowing whats coming next, as much of a juxtoposition as it sounds, i mean how can you look for something that you dont know is coming, but you understand

although one bad example i have heard of such experimentation was in Atomic Jam once, some woeful dj played Jason Nevins "it's like that" into Surgeon "midnight club tracks 2"

it sounded as bad as it looks written down

[rhythmtech]

but surely if everything goes in that direction then ther'll be a backlash and people will start wanting heads down stuff again?

i agree that booka shade has its place.. and from what i've heard they're fukin very good. but thats my whole point entirely, everything has its place. heads down, musical, glitch whatever.. each can co-exist side by side.. i dont think tehcno needs to go in any direction at all, i think it just needs to keep being techno.

what is the point in everyone running in the same direction? theres plenty of room for experimentation within the so called "looped" genre.. same as theres plenty of rome to crank it up in the mnml genre.. cross pollenation is the key, not extreme measures.

[eyeswithoutaface]

well considering i never said everything should go down that route, no. Some people definately would not benefit from bringing their music into a more live orientated environment, but i know categorically some people absolutely fly playing full live gigs.

and to be honest, everyone is practically running in the same direction now, especially within their own subgenres, and only really seem to move out of their safety zone into another relative safety zone.

put it this way, right now as the scene stands, i would much, much rather be one of the lowly people like ourselves than one of the bigger and systematically known for one style big boys. Anyday of the week.

[Lag]

but theres a lot of great music out there that isnt very musical. i dont think people should get hung up on the muso thing too much.. what makes great music isnt the chord progressions its the effect it has on the listener.. im a musician thru and thru m8 and i still love hertz stuff. im also a huge fan of dead can dance, doesnt mean i think they're any better than hertz because they're better musicians.

i know plenty of good musicians who couldnt get a track going.. yet i know lads that can only play 3 note basslines but have written some of the best tunes i've ever heard.

rythm is music too
music is voice + melody + rythm
all should be complicated and harmonic
if one is missing, the other two can make up for it
someone even likes just two (like i dont like vocals)

but dude, one cant make up for two elements missing
its almost impossible

if u look back, im sure ull realise that techno didnt become big because it was hard. it became big, because its emotions were strong. when there was no emotions left, just the hard punching kick and some empty melodies to fill the space around it - techno died out

[rhythmtech]

i know what you mean about the safety zone thing.. but thats a tough bridge to cross and sometimes crossing it in small increments can be a step forward.. for instance i've just finished a tune with a slap bass in it, its still techno but a small step in another direction for me.. and aswell you have to remember that the output we hear from artists isnt their only output.

if an artist tries to cross genres they arent always accpted on musical ability by the new genre, however good their tunes are. we both know that the snobbery within differant genres can be a little ridiculas at times. so sometimes staying safe is only what we perceive from an artist.

as for artists with their own labels.. well i cant really make any excuses.. they have the option to try differant stuff BUT theres always the fear of bad sales. if you've worked hard to gain a reputation as a solid label is it really wise to put that rep in jepordy? can you still maintain our label if you have a run of bad sales? i know that in an ideal world we could all try to be as experimental as possible but in this day and age its a differant ball game. unlike the "innovators" of techno, people now have a lot more to lose.. its established business now and, ugly as it is, money plays a very important part in what gets heard.

[rhythmtech]

if u look back, im sure ull realise that techno didnt become big because it was hard. it became big, because its emotions were strong. when there was no emotions left, just the hard punching kick and some empty melodies to fill the space around it - techno died out

m8.. i never once thought techno had to be hard.. in fact if i hear anything over 145 i start getting the shakes

i love melodic techno, i think that techno should have music to it. but what im saying is that musicians dont have to be accomplished musos to write a great tune. look at the punk scene.. some of my fave music ever has come from punk.. and bar 1 or 2 bands (subhumans for one) most punk bands played pretty simplistic stuff. it was about attitude and attitude coming across in music. i think hertz has a certain attitude to his music.. a lot of people will cite him as a favourite producer because of the amount of funk that he generates in a tune. he certainly isnt just a big kick and some loops.

i know this cause if he was i wouldnt be bothered listening.

[eyeswithoutaface]

the thing about artists crossing genre's is 99% of the time sheer ignorance and selfishness on the punters half when they get slagged off. Beyer is the classic. I know so many hard techno heads who simply wont even listen to Beyers new output because it aint drumcode, so those kinda guys have lost the battle before he's even started, but as you pointed out it is a business of course, and this kind of thing wont affect someone like Beyer these days obviously. He could start doing Hungarian Polka and people would still turn up to see him play.

This whole thing only becomes as much of a business as the individual lets it. If you want to run a label, and you have done your homework, dont come crying when u end up losing money hand over fist. Which you will, pretty much guaranteed in some way, shape or form. Im not saying this to you i mean in general. Im sick of people going "oh its a business, its a money thing etc etc etc " because that's only true to a certain extent, it only gets as business like as a person wishes it to become so, to my amazement there are actually people putting out records on their own labels and others who will never know how many records they are selling, and dont care either.

someone said to me once the distributors only let you know when ur records are selling badly, and the more i release, the more i find this is true hahaha

[eyeswithoutaface]

i think there's a couple of convo's here now isnt there :)

[rhythmtech]

i think in our case we researched thoroughly b4 deciding to start the label.. and luckily we're perpared and in the position to lose money.. but we still want the label to be a success so we decided to go with what we know ie pumpin dancefloor techno. maybe someday when we start makin something of it we'll be able to start a rmxs off shoot.

hopefully if we do it will be a REAL rmxs label.. not just more techno versions of the tunes.. i'd love to hear dub, d'n'b, mnml, glitch, elctro versions of the techno we release.. but like i said, thats way down the line.. at the moment im gonna concentrate on what i know best and hope it works

[dirty_bass]

but again we're back to the old listening/dancefloor techno debate. booka shade (to me) has no place on a techno dancefloor. here another example: marks BOA label.. hardly the most "musical" label BUT it wipes dancefloors.. and, to me, thats what techno is all about. ITS MUSIC MADE FOR DANCING. i know i can listen to electronic music like the knife or the orb or whatever and its a beautiful listening experience but it wouldnt stand up in a banging techno set because it hasnt got dancefloor sensibilities..

maybe we need to think in new musical terms when labeling techno, maybe porduction and asthetics have become as much a part of the music as the tune itself? not saying that we dont need a good tune. i still think a good tune is paramount, but in all honesty a good tune can be 3/4 notes (like hertz) as much as it can be a big orchestral masterpiece.

I kinda disagree.
you can have music and rock a danceloor.
You only have to look to the disco era 70`s
Masses of musicality (whether you like it, or not) and huge amounts of people digging it and getting down.
Ok so that was a wierd example.
But as soon as every tom, dick and DJ thought they could make (music) "techno", by knocking together some loops and processing them to phuck, techno hit it`s lowest patch ever. The glut and slew of 2000 to present day, when I backlash is finally happaning.
Sure, loopy dancefloor only stuff has it`s merits, but it became the norm, just loops and dancefloor and nothing else.
Is it any wonder that techno is the dance music with the lowest sales, lowest club attendance, least events etc.
People just can`t relate to it. And people do like to be able to recognise something, anything, some kind of hook, that they can then go "oh yeah, I heard this last month, or whatever, it`s wicked, I`m gonna dance".
Interestingly the female perspective comes in again, as a whole (and I`m being careful not to tar all girls with the same brush), women generally prefer melody or some kind of tune in music.
Across the board, that`s why the more obscure music, from dance music to bands, has more blokes and less chicks in attendance.

So sure, there`s room for a bit of loop-de-loop to keep the DJ`s happy, but I think musicality and tunefullness is also just as essential.

and it is elitist I know, but really we could do with more musicians making music, and less DJ`s using their names to knock out substandard cack.

[rhythmtech]

defintily i agree..

i think people are getting the idea that i dont think there should be music in techno.. there defintly should BUT i dont think you need to be a muso to do it.. what im saying is that a few notes can be as solid in the right place as 100 notes.. look at early works by the jam. now i know weller & co. were gifted but the early stuff is still simplisticly brilliant.

[Lag]

m8.. i never once thought techno had to be hard.. in fact if i hear anything over 145 i start getting the shakes

i love melodic techno, i think that techno should have music to it. but what im saying is that musicians dont have to be accomplished musos to write a great tune. look at the punk scene.. some of my fave music ever has come from punk.. and bar 1 or 2 bands (subhumans for one) most punk bands played pretty simplistic stuff. it was about attitude and attitude coming across in music. i think hertz has a certain attitude to his music.. a lot of people will cite him as a favourite producer because of the amount of funk that he generates in a tune. he certainly isnt just a big kick and some loops.

i know this cause if he was i wouldnt be bothered listening.

punk is a music of vocals and attitude
it doesnt have to do anything with music
while techno, since its creatioin, was all about music
so you cant actually compare the two

and you keep missing the point. yes, hertz has melodies. yes, hertz is funky. but dude, its simple as it gets. as i said, its just tunes to fill the space around the kick.
u can sing out any hertz tune
try singing out james ruskin - profile =P

[rhythmtech]

im gonna back out of this now for 2 reasons.

a. i really cant get my head around your attitude. i love all types of techno. i dont discount any techno because of simplicity. if its good its good. simple.

and 2. im tired

[rhythmtech]

and techno is ALL about attitude. techno without attitude may aswell be pop music.

[Lag]

haha
cool
we just see music in different ways
or look for different things in it

peace

[rhythmtech]

haha
cool
we just see music in different ways
or look for different things in it

peace

peace bruv

[DannyBlack]

ha ha ha ha ha! what a nice ending!

you know what? i love techno, i mean really love it. whether it be minimal, hard, progressive or even schranz its all music of different variations and its all beautiful.
to me it is the best form of music.

[dirty_bass]

techno is ALL about attitude.

As soon as you define it, and give it parameters, it stops becoming techno.
I think it should be fluid, constantly changing, and "futuristic" as EG likes to say.
To suggest it all should have attitude, takes away the stuff that works on a different level, the spacey stuff
the moody, downbeat stuff
the psychadelic
the laid back

It`s more than just attitude.

[rhythmtech]

As soon as you define it, and give it parameters, it stops becoming techno.
I think it should be fluid, constantly changing, and "futuristic" as EG likes to say.
To suggest it all should have attitude, takes away the stuff that works on a different level, the spacey
the moody, downbeat stuff
the psychadelic
the laid back

It`s more than just attitude.

attitude can be a lot of differant things. music can have a spacey attitude, a moody attitude, phychadelic attitude or a laid back attitude... dont take the meaning of the word in its literal sense.

and as soon as you stop putting parameters on something it stops being what it was and starts becoming something else, as much as that might upset your ideas about what techno should/shouldnt be, its the truth... if i make techno that has an electro arrangement, uses electro sounds and gets electro fans excited then surely i've just made electro?

if this isnt true then y did you publicly state something about you not making "techno" (cant remember the exact description you used for it)? surely then you can make what you want and its still techno?

[loopdon]

Now where have those fat basslines gone then? :)