Credit Crunch vs Arrogance of Big Names

[The_Laughing_Man]

I hope you are not being on the offensive...

I did not say YOU were griping about wages at all.
I agreed with a point he made about minding our own business.
If someone asked me how much I got paid to do something artistic, I would politely tell them to kick rocks walking.

If you have a problem with me agreeing with that, then it's yours and not mine.
I have nothing to gain by agreeing with Henry's post.

I have no problem
I was merely making a reply, rather impling anything about yourself.
That is what the reply button is for no?


DJing is more craft than art IMO, although not always.

[aNaLpLeAsEr]

you are in the small minority though of die hards.

90% of people will not go to a night without one of their faves playing.or atleast someone they have heard of.

post your source.

[The Overfiend]

Right, I have this bridge I'm selling.
It goes from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
Only serious inquiries garner a response.

[judas_beast]

Personally, I love dance music!

[The_Laughing_Man]

Right, I have this bridge I'm selling.
It goes from Manhattan to Brooklyn.
Only serious inquiries garner a response.

Why would anyone buy that?
Burn it down surely, keep the riff raff out of manhatten

[BloodStar]

@Sunil: I pretty much agree with you, but dont fully get your statement about promoters should start taking risks,etc. I dont get this. Sorry, but if someone starts to recommend me to take risks, I answer "come on, you dont even know what it means, taking risk." -this is nothing aimed to you Sunil, but more likely generic call.

I strongly recommend to everyone, go and book your venue, pay for lights and sound, do a strong promotion, hook with the DJs and pay their fees, do all the hard job in party prep, if you will be lucky you not loose,.... If you loose money, you can be happy because you did SOMETHING for techno music, hehe, and next time please take more risks ;-]

Making parties is two sides coin, and there should be more communication between promoter and DJ as both of these cant live one without the other,. This is where I feel kind of arrogance coming from DJside. Yeah, I see there is possibly many bastards so called promoters out there, who is chasing artists for money and doesnt stand by the conditions agreed and signed in the contract, that's another story.

Doesnt want to look like I am crying here wanting to change something what cannot be changed as this is the business part of thing which lives its own life, but nevermind,. One day, when there will not be a promoter who wants to pay the dj fees, noone interested in techno music, no techno parties at all, maybe then Djs will wake up. Of course respect to anyone who is doing their thing and who is open to any communication about fees and stuff.. keep it up.

[Jay Pace]

post your source.

If you promote a night, you tend to notice that more people come down for big names. Sorry, what was your source again?

Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent

Yeah, bit of a problem that. If you're running on a knife edge whacking on an agent fee, and having to haggle with someone with no particular interest in your night is tricky. I've got friends who were pissed off to learn that their agent didn't bother passing on bookings, because they decided the y weren't worth enough. And that basically boiled down to "for what they are offering, my cut is too small to bother with". There's a bit of a conflict of interests at work, and I can understand why busy djs would want agents but I'd much rather speak with artists directly.

We usually go for a mix of friends, up-and comers and big names. Keeps things interesting enough, lets us all play and gets some new faces out there. But part of the reputation of the night has been built on the people we book and the atmosphere they help create. A lot of big names are big names simply because they are exceptional at what they do, its not all hype and bollocks.

[The_Laughing_Man]

Well, no-one is putting a gun to many of these promoters' heads forcing them to book an act. If in this climate they can't broker a good deal, then they either aren't doing their job well, or that artist just isn't worth booking.
Don't just blame the djs either. Behind every big, very well paid dj... is an agent :)

The business flights thing, paying to bring tour managers over etc. is horse shit for sure - although if you are Carl Cox or someone then that won't be a problem, he's gonna sell your club out, so there's no problem.
In techno at the moment, I think there are loads of people that are willing to cut a deal, while on another hand there are some that haven't accepted that they need to take a drop - like you mentioned DB. Then of course there are those who feel that by reducing their fee will depreciate their general value. Y'know it's catch 22 when you get into that area of things - for smaller scale gigs especially - if a promoter gets a dj for a bargain, he/she is likely to put in less effort promoting it because there is less on the line, and often the gig can be crap. Likewise, if a fee is dropped, word starts to spead about that with other promoters, which may not be a positive thing for the dj.

Where there's a bigger fee or costs on the table, you can be guaranteed that the promoter will be trying a lot more, which often leads to a better and more well attended gig. All of these things taken into consideration though, I think it's still safe to say that things are pretty ****ed at the moment! Nothing is a guarantee, other than a very select few names.. In terms of underground techno, I think there are problems related to the music too, and the fact that it isn't followed as closely by younger generations coming through at all.. We've had this conversation before, but nothing's changed since. 2004 was where it all started to change I think :(

It's time for more promoters to take risks though. All that can be achieved at this stage for many is to go for broke, and break in newer (or already established) inexpensive names. There's more to putting on gigs than firing a name or two on a poster, there are many ways to create or buzz around a gig if you have good ideas and the right people around you. One surefire way is to build up new unknown local djs to do warm up slots, that will bring their mates etc. (you need to choose wisely as well). If you are starting gigs to put on just you, your mates and a big name, then you could be making a fatal mistake.. you need to share the load, bring as much new support to the night, and then capitalise on that when you put on a big name. Then hopefully the helicopter rides, powder, champagne etc. for the guest won't be a problem to have to fork out on!

Any perspective techno night that think banging it out for a full night is going to be a success, should just give up now. The proof has been there for ages that these nights don't last, and that venues don't like it either. Build up to the heavy stuff, and make sure you have enough material that girls might really like to move to too :) Lastly.. maybe just throw out the whole idea of a techno only night, or an any one-type-of-genre night: if you're going to do that it should probably be a night of indie electro, disco punk or whatever is hot right now.

Great post, I agree.
More communication is what we really need at the bottom line.
And more discussions like this, where no maklice is intented, but, things are talked in straight lines rather than accomodating for ego ro brown nosing for points or whatever.
More talk between promoters.
More talk between promoters and acts.
More talk between Agents and Promoters.
etc
The lines of communication need to be opened more so a little more consensus can be made during these times.
A DJ dropping their fee for a smaller venue doesn`t mean they have to always drop their fee. Just make it clear that a bigger venue = bigger fee etc.

I didn`t start this topic to moan and bitch, as really, it has no direct effect on me per se, I just wanted to see ideas and communication as I know a lot of people effected.
Better we talk honestly in all areas than just turn into nodding yesmen.

[Sunil]

@Sunil: I pretty much agree with you, but dont fully get your statement about promoters should start taking risks,etc. I dont get this. Sorry, but if someone starts to recommend me to take risks, I answer "come on, you dont even know what it means, taking risk." -this is nothing aimed to you Sunil, but more likely generic call.

Well, right now putting on a gig of any sort is a risk, so what I'm suggesting is that in these challenging times, which is essentially gonna be the biggest transition we have experienced in the club scene in a long time, it is important that we come out the other side with the make up of A, B, and C league 'names' having changed a bit. The techno scene has been stagnant in this regard for a long time, even though many new producers have been coming through, deserving of more exposure in the way of gigs. Does it make sense that practically all of the people that can fill a venue are guys that are all pushing 40 or over? (and that's not disrespecting them, many of them should be there without doubt).
I think the problem more often than not, in trying achieve what I'm saying, is that many promoters start too big (either with the size of venue or name), instead of starting smaller and more manageable, building it up more 'organically' for want of a better word.
Sure, "taking risks" is easy for me or anyone else to throw around... but while we're at this stage, and with so many emerging names willing and able to do gigs for not loads of money, maybe it's time to see this reflected in more lineups. The techno scene needs freshening up and this is one of the only ways to do it.

[Martin Dust]

Some in interesting points, in Sheffield you lose about 40% of crowd if it rains, strange fact but it's still hold true.

[The Overfiend]

As for taking risks and booking lesser known names, I can see the only promoter rebuttle being the return on investment.
Unfortunately a promoters job is not to be a talent philanthropist.
They are going to want to book who will make all ends paid plus profit.
It's like flipping a brick, no one does it to see other people happy and high.

[Sunil]

A lot of big names are big names simply because they are exceptional at what they do, its not all hype and bollocks.

For sure. It's too easy to level criticism at all of the dj 'establishment' out there, when in fact some are still true professionals and still great at what they do.
Actually on the subject of fees etc: I did hear about one quite prominent techno dj dropping his fee last year, even before the recession was officially here - so I guess not all of them aren't as deluded as some might think!

[Sunil]

Great post, I agree.
More communication is what we really need at the bottom line.
And more discussions like this, where no maklice is intented, but, things are talked in straight lines rather than accomodating for ego ro brown nosing for points or whatever.

Nice one.
Yeah, I'd kinda given up on messageboards, and BOA particularly, but discussions like this every so often definitely don't do any harm..

[The_Laughing_Man]

I think the problem more often than not, in trying achieve what I'm saying, is that many promoters start too big (either with the size of venue or name), instead of starting smaller and more manageable, building it up more 'organically' for want of a better word.

Yes I agree.
This is in part due to the instant fix generation though.

You get promoters who try to start too big because they want instant success and huge parties, rather than building a fan base from ground up.
This does cause a lot of stress both for big acts who maybe don`t get paid (or smaller acts) for their work, and causes promoters who maybe intend well to give up hope when really they just didn`t think clearly.

Same with production, too many guys have fruity loops for a year and bang out a tune or start a label thinking they are a pro, rather than actually listening and learning and putting in the time to get to a standard.
Thus we have a billion labels on juno now half of which sound like amateur rubbish and don`t do any favours for the music as a whole.

There seems to be little patience or commitment to hard work a lot of the time in these problems.

[The Overfiend]

Steve how much of your own revenue are you investing to fix the problem as you say? If the solution is grassroots and up and starts at the individual then where are all of the raves or parties being thrown on a major scale with people involved in the music actively participating and contributing.
The fault is everyone's.
You can't complain about everything and gripe to solve the problem.
If someone starts a label it's because they want to release what that individual defines as quality, or good.
All of the classic most people rave about, you can hear the samples plain as day when you hear it. Down to the loop, things change man.
All of the above doesn't mean the market is not there. It is just harder to sell.
Especially to a market where everyone knows exactly how you constructed your track and could pretty much use a DIY method to recreate it.
Times are changing and you either adapt adopt and apply or cry about how things will never be the same.
Bunch of negative nancies sometimes.

[The_Laughing_Man]

You only read the negatives.

Change for the + comes from debate.
Yesmen make nothing for the future.

This thread, has pretty much been a proper debate, questions and solutions are being offered as far as I can read.
Those that fear debate need not take part.

As for my own personal investment.
What does my revenue invested have anything to do with?
I helped and am still involved in Club TED.
An event that only books live pa`s of across the board dance music.
About 70% of the pa`s that we book have been producers who have wanted to play live but didn`t know how.
I tutored them in live pa, then we booked them in TED and most are now gigging all over the shop doing live pa`s in their respective fields.
I still tutor people on live pa`s and am now investing a lot of time to become an ableton certified trainer so I can continue to run pa workshops, and hopefully by the end of year, I will also be doing production workshops around europe.

I`ve had many producers also in my studio for production sessions and offer an open door policy to people I speak to, to come down and stay at my place for a few days to run their tracks and get mix advice assistance and tutoring.

If they can travel to my place the rest is free.

I am in fact mastering the BOA Noise Network label for free and have just finished it today.

Also with my friend Steve, who you yourself know, a legal expert in music copyright and media in general, I put people to him as he offers pro bono advice and help with music legal matters. As well as helping people out with basics such as dealing with distributers, manufacture etc

We also via the level-1 network offer free radio broadcast services, in-club live broadcast services and much more.

I do as much as I can whilst still doing my own thing, to answer your question.

Of course everything I do is very very negative and contributes nothing to anything.

[The Overfiend]

I do as much as I can whilst still doing my own thing, to answer your question..

That's all one could really ask for then isn't it.
I am just saying if we want things done better.
WE have to be the ones to destroy the garbage and rebuild it from scratch our own way.

[The_Laughing_Man]

and surely to help each other we need to discuss and debate the matter?

[The Overfiend]

The problem is not how much money the big names are making.
It's what are we doing on the grassroots level to build from the "mistakes" or "oversights" of others before us.

[The_Laughing_Man]

The problem is not how much money the big names are making.
It's what are we doing on the grassroots level to build from the "mistakes" or "oversights" of others before us.

depends what problem you are talking about.
There are many.
And I think you miss the entire point of this thread by focusing on what the DJ`s are earning.

It`s not about that.
It`s about fairness, facing up to the times, working with the scene rather than above it, arrogance, and of course, the fact that all agents are spawns of satan.

Some people have been and are very fair, very amenable, and very savvy.
There is no black and white, merely a sea of grey.

Grass roots stuff needs to be dealt with, but so does the middle and the top