RA: Month to Month - Analysis of Vinyl and Techno...hmmmm

[Martin Dust]

pointless? how so?..

Read it, it's written to get links and a reaction - he knows half of nothing if you ask me.

surely reaching a larger audience is a good thing? ?..

Why? Does it actually exist? Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.

when i first got into techno "non djs" would actually buy the music because it was music they liked.. these days how, besides the hardcore fans and djs, is going to shell out silly money for 2/3 tracks? like sheeva said, we need to get fans listening and buying again..

Stop worrying about things you can NOT influence, make your music and do your thing - **** them all :)

[rhythmtech]

Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.

^^ THAT is a sad way to think. surely you want your music to get to as wide an audience as possible? or are you missing the good old days of techno elitism?

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"

bollox to that..

[massplanck]

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"
.

:clap:

[Martin Dust]

^^ THAT is a sad way to think. surely you want your music to get to as wide an audience as possible? or are you missing the good old days of techno elitism?

"hey, heard this fukin awesome tune m8... but dont tell anyone.. it'll be our little secret"

bollox to that..

It's not sad at all and it's nothing to do with elitism or it being secret - please don't project your own trappings of the scene onto me.

Music finds people and you can't be everything to everyone and more to the point 99.9% don't care, so why are you wasting your time and energy evangalising?

If you want to obsess with dragging the general public by the bollocks down the road to Damascus that is Techno - go ahead, talk about it all you want, start a thousand threads about it, go around and around.

Last time I looked this was about music, ideas and being creative, being an artist not a contestant in some kind of popularity contest or seeking public or any kind of approval.

[rhythmtech]

It's not sad at all and it's nothing to do with elitism or it being secret - please don't project your own trappings of the scene onto me.

Music finds people and you can't be everything to everyone and more to the point 99.9% don't care, so why are you wasting your time and energy evangalising?

If you want to obsess with dragging the general public by the bollocks down the road to Damascus that is Techno - go ahead, talk about it all you want, start a thousand threads about it, go around and around.

Last time I looked this was about music, ideas and being creative, being an artist not a contestant in some kind of popularity contest or seeking public or any kind of approval.

who's looking to be popular?

just because i still feel people will like techno, given the means to hear it, doesnt mean im trying so desperatly to be liked (if that was the case i certainly wouldnt be making techno!)

if you wanna be all artistic and "underground" thats your choice.. but dont expect everyone else to have the same low expectations.. some of us actually have a bit of enthusiasm left for getting the music out there and for it to be heard (we've all done the 1 man and his dog gigs.. and i definitly dont wanna go back to doing them)

and if you think 99.9% of people dont care what you're playing them i think its time you searched out some new people.

[Martin Dust]

who's looking to be popular? .

Isn't that what your preaching, you want people to hear it cos you think they will all like it given a chance? It deserves to be heard, well here's the thing, you don't get to decide that.

just because i still feel people will like techno, given the means to hear it, doesnt mean im trying so desperatly to be liked (if that was the case i certainly wouldnt be making techno!)

What are you trying to achieve then?

if you wanna be all artistic and "underground" thats your choice.. but dont expect everyone else to have the same low expectations.. some of us actually have a bit of enthusiasm left for getting the music out there and for it to be heard (we've all done the 1 man and his dog gigs.. and i definitly dont wanna go back to doing them)

Low expectations? Enthusiasm? You surely can't be leveling that BS at me, can you?

and if you think 99.9% of people dont care what you're playing them i think its time you searched out some new people.

Do a quick poll in the street, go and ask "people" - they don't care, they can't even be arsed to ****ing vote let alone give you some feedback on the latest 12". This has sudden shifted from the general public to the audience we/I play to, how did that happen? Stay on target ;)

[rhythmtech]

Isn't that what your preaching, you want people to hear it cos you think they will all like it given a chance? It deserves to be heard, well here's the thing, you don't get to decide that.

no i dont get to decide but by releasing on as many fomatrs as possible i at least make it more accessible for people to decide for themselves.

if you press 1000 of a vinyl, that means (illegal downloads and copies not included) that legally only 1000 people should have that track. we all know that more people will download it so y not release it digitally yourself and possibly recoup some oof the vinyl expenses so that the next release can be done and the one after that.

What are you trying to achieve then?

wanting your music to be heard is totally differant to wanting to be popular?

Low expectations? Enthusiasm? You surely can't be leveling that BS at me, can you?

i just did.

Do a quick poll in the street, go and ask "people" - they don't care, they can't even be arsed to ****ing vote let alone give you some feedback on the latest 12". This has sudden shifted from the general public to the audience we/I play to, how did that happen? Stay on target ;)

like i said, meet some new people.. i know plenty of people that love techno and always ask what a certain track is and where they can get it. i say you can oreder the vinyl online and they dont want to know. cost, shipping etc.. and most people dont have a turntable anyway.

i dont know where you stand on the digi issue but surely making your music more available to a wider audience is a good thing? or have i suddenly stepped into bizzaro world?

[Martin Dust]

if you press 1000 of a vinyl, that means (illegal downloads and copies not included) that legally only 1000 people should have that track. we all know that more people will download it so y not release it digitally yourself and possibly recoup some oof the vinyl expenses so that the next release can be done and the one after that.

If only it was that simple, if you can't sell a 1000 records you shouldn't be pressing that many, and most techno labels recoup very little off downloads.

i just did.

I don't see how you really can and expect me to take it seriously.

like i said, meet some new people.. i know plenty of people that love techno and always ask what a certain track is and where they can get it. i say you can oreder the vinyl online and they dont want to know. cost, shipping etc.. and most people dont have a turntable anyway.

i dont know where you stand on the digi issue but surely making your music more available to a wider audience is a good thing? or have i suddenly stepped into bizzaro world?

What are you on about? Meet some new people.....This isn't about me.

[djshiva]

Why? Does it actually exist? Weak argument, if you want a big audience, if that's what it's all about, join a ****ing boy band.

well it's the chicken and the egg argument here tho, isn't it? does the wider audience exist to market the music to? CAN the wider audience exist without wider accessibility of the music? ad infinitum...

it's not about giving into some boy band commercialization notion. it's about understanding how you can keep your music fresh and even (dare i say it) underground, bypassing the common notion of "big labels" and still being able to get your music into the hands of people who love it, using a method that can still stay separate from the "big music business" mentality.

like i said, if it weren't for the digital option, right now my poor ass wouldn't be buying ANY music. and i ask you, from a purely logical (and not emotional) standpoint, which is better? all vinyl, no digital, and less music sold, meaning more money lost and less good music heard...or digital <i>options</i>, music sold, tunes played, people happy, musicians making something for their work, labels surviving to put out more music?

you say it's not about money, but martin, let's face it...if you can't pay rent or put food on the table, music becomes secondary to survival. and i know most musicians have day jobs, and aren't trying to get rich, but the ability to at least make a little scrilla off their work is nice. and frankly, if the labels are not making sales, they won't survive. so sales are, at some point in this debate, very relevant.

i WANT to buy the music. i want the musicians to get paid. i want the labels to survive. now i have more options. sure i want to see vinyl survive, but in all honesty, it's more important to me that the MUSIC survives.

at the end of the day, it's all soundwaves bouncing off of eardrums. how they get transported there is less important to me than the fact that they do.

[RDR]

Here's something else to add fuel to the fire

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archiv..._true_fans.php

[Martin Dust]

Here's something else to add fuel to the fire

http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archiv..._true_fans.php

Alan Oldham said that way back in the day, it's an interesting theory and one that does work.

[RDR]

Alan Oldham said that way back in the day, it's an interesting theory and one that does work.

Its a bit long winded but a really good read (IMO of course... I AM a nerd afterall)

[Martin Dust]

like i said, if it weren't for the digital option, right now my poor ass wouldn't be buying ANY music. and i ask you, from a purely logical (and not emotional) standpoint, which is better? all vinyl, no digital, and less music sold, meaning more money lost and less good music heard...or digital <i>options</i>, music sold, tunes played, people happy, musicians making something for their work, labels surviving to put out more music?

The only answer I can give it what I've already stated, I do what I believe is right for the project/music, that's what comes first to me, not consumerism.

[djshiva]

The only answer I can give it what I've already stated, I do what I believe is right for the project/music, that's what comes first to me, not consumerism.

ok, let me qualify by saying that i am not about consumerism or the idea of music as "product" any more than you are, i think. and please know that all of my questions are more about hearing different sides, and not necessarily about being right about any of it (since i don't think a "right" answer exits).

let me then ask you this: as someone who has been a musician all my life, who eats sleeps shits breathes music, who wants to see good music recognized and valued, who wants to see musicians and artists' work valued, who does NOT want to see the music cheapened or turned into disposable crap (and i do think there is some validity to the idea that the abundance and availability of digital music COULD contribute to its disposability, so that is an argument i actually recognize has some merit)...as a person who loves music more than anything on this planet, how exactly is it BAD that i can afford to access the music easier now?

know too, that i do recognize the value of hunting down that elusive record, the process, the goal, the overwhelming joy of finding what i have been searching for, and the feeling i get from having really had to work to find it. i am from a small town in indiana originally, and i had to drive at least 2 hours or more to go record shopping when i first started buying electronic music. i KNOW all about the search and the dedication of working to find the music. and i know that i really appreciated what i had after that process. that said, it cost me SO much to engage in this process, and even though that process has been made easier by online record shopping, i have been working in the non-profit field for years, and trust me, it pays a pittance. i may not have to go through the exact same process to find music now, but i still hunt every day for good tunes. i am still picky as hell, and i still listen to hundreds of bits of music, and still only buy a handful that i believe are the top of the heap, just like i did when i was record shopping. ;)

so my question is basically this (and i know you have every right to dictate the terms of how your own label works, i am not questioning that):

even though you do have the right as a label owner to dictate the terms of how the music is presented, does a DJ/fan/afficianado not have any room to have a say in how they get to listen to it? because i cannot afford to buy records (or let's say i am not a dj, but just someone who loves techno and wants to listen to it), am i then to just accept the fact that i cannot hear brilliant releases because i cannot afford it/have the wrong player format?

what possible good can come out of a music afficianado being told that they cannot hear good music because of money or format issues? is this really about the idea of consumption? is it about product? is it about music? is there something inherently good or bad with increased accessiblity? i am genuinely asking. i don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong to all of this, or that i have the answers, but i am very interested in intelligent discussion about it. so please don't take this as an attack. it's more me trying to understand different people's viewpoints about it and spur some good discussion. :)

[Martin Dust]

Shiva is the crux of what you're saying is that you believe you have a "right" to access "good" music regardless of what the label/artist decides?

[djshiva]

Shiva is the crux of what you're saying is that you believe you have a "right" to access "good" music regardless of what the label/artist decides?

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking.

kinda begs the question: if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

is music an exchange of ideas, a meeting somewhere in the middle between the inspiration to create and the joy of experiencing it? is it a sharing of beauty? a communication? or is it a one-sided endeavor, made only for those at its source? is art/music made in a vacuum? should it be?

again, these are all just random questions that popped into my head over the course of this discussion. perhaps i am over-philosophizing, but i personally find them to be very important questions about the nature of art and creation.

[Martin Dust]

not at all. it was a question to spur discussion, actually. i don't think access to someone else's musical output necessarily counts as a "right". but i do wonder when the artist became more important than the listener, if that clears up what i was asking..

For me, I love it when something is final, I guess some people will never understand or accept that. It's really nothing to do with rights, would you ask Mr. Hirst to do a picture on A0 cream paper because that's what you prefer? What do you think he'd say :)